From Hacking to Cyber Warfare: Inside the World of an Intelligence Expert with Mike Jones

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Speaker 1: How's it going, mike?

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It's really good to finally have you on the podcast.

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I feel like we scheduled this thing so long ago, but luckily I

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had the foresight of understanding that my kid was

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probably going to come in March, and so I booked off all of

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March.

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So, but I'm glad to finally have you.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a pleasure being here, man, it's a, it's

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an honor, and congratulations on the uh the newborn.

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That's pretty awesome.

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Um Yeah, so just, it's great to be here and it's great to be

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back, back from where I was, uh, back in december november.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.

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Well, you know, mike, i um, i start everyone off with their

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background, and the reason why I do that is because, uh, you

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know one, my audience may not be familiar with who you are,

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somehow, if they're living under a rock, right, um, and it also

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helps the people that are trying to do that career change into

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security so that they can hear the background.

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You know there's a variety of backgrounds.

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I've never heard the same uh Backstory you know of anyone,

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and so I feel like hearing that variety really helps my audience

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know that they can do it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, for sure, for sure.

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So a little bit about me.

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Um, i got my start many, many, many moons ago with Gateway

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computers.

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Um, actually, me and Jason street worked in the same office

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in houston for gateway computer support.

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That didn't last very long for me.

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I wasn't very good with technical support for people

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that that didn't have somewhat of a computer literacy or some

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sort of knowledge.

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Um, so I moved to sega soft gaming And debated testing for

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stuff like rocket jockey, which was really cool, so I was

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looking for glitches in software early on.

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Um, i had messed with computers from an early age.

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My dad worked at nsa when I was a kid, was always into

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electronics some sort of electronics And uh, so fast

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forward and went to the military , became a signal signal

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intelligence analyst.

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Later on became a cyber warfare uh Warrior for the navy one of

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the first, uh, one of the first in that rate.

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Um, and in between, so got into a little bit of trouble with

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the fbi.

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Uh, opened up a couple can of worms here and there and uh, in

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2016, had to come to jesus meeting and work for the fbi for

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a year as an informant And then went to europe thinking

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everything was good after that and got stuck Because the state

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department decided it would be a beneficial thing for the

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country to revoke my passport.

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So I was Basically exiled, for lack of better terms.

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I'm here in today.

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Speaker 1: That is a That's a wild, wild journey.

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Um, i, i mean, you know, let's start.

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Let's start from the beginning, if we can, right like I.

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Obviously I don't want you to Tell me anything that you

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shouldn't.

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I would prefer that the us Government doesn't come knocking

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on my door.

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That would not be fun.

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Um, you know, how did you get into, how did you get into being

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a signals intelligence officer, analyst, whatever Whatever the

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title might have been?

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um, because I, i imagine that that's It's a pretty interesting

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field, and especially with the chinese Balloon that, just you

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know, went over the country.

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Um, there's a lot of mixed, i guess, feedback on it.

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Right, a lot of people are saying, oh, it's a weather

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balloon, or oh, it's not going to get anything different than

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what a satellite would, which you know me being a security

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person, i mean, that's complete bullshit, right, like complete

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bullshit, especially over the sites that it was flying over.

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Um, there's no telling what it could have gathered.

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You know, so, like, how did you get started in that field?

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Speaker 2: So the funny thing is , um, my dad was also a ham

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radio operator, an amateur radio operator, and so he had a lot

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of that equipment around.

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I was really interested in electronics, like I said, from a

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super early age, like 8 years old.

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I really wanted to have things that beeped and had lights, um,

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so I got into radio and I got into, um, ham radio, and so I

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figured that would be a good transition.

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I I already had, you know, some decent math skills and I

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figured that I would go into the field.

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You know some decent math skills and I figured that I

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would go into something that had an intelligence rate.

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So 9 11 hit, and one of the things that I really pushed for

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was I wanted to go back in, i wanted to help the country, but

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with one caveat I wanted to go into intelligence because I knew

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at at that point in time, when the last plane hit the tower, i

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knew at that point that intelligence and cyber security

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was going to be huge.

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Because that's, that's what caused that whole, that whole

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domino effect of events, was lack of intelligence, and where

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intelligence is going today is the internet.

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Um, so it pushed really hard for that.

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I scored really high on asab and went through the school And

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uh ended up getting stationed at the joint force intelligence

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command in virginia.

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Speaker 1: Hmm, can you tell me anything about the school?

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because, like You know, i I always wondered if, like that

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edward snowden movie was accurate, right, where they sit

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them all down and they're like, oh, create a I don't know,

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create a encrypted form of communication that cannot be

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broken, you know, and you have like two hours to do it, or

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something like that.

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Like, is that the kind of tasks that they would give you, or

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was it something that's worse, different, it's a war.

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Speaker 2: It's way worse, man, um.

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So one of the exercises that they do, um, is they actually

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sit us behind these simulators, right, And they launch these

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simulated missiles towards where we're at and we have to pick

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them up on the radar, bust them down by pri and prf telemetry,

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um, look at velocity, trajection and be able to tell when that

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Missile after we identify what missile it is is going to hit

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the ship that we're on And you have it's timed and you have

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guys behind you yelling at you.

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You know, look at this, look at that, and it's just, it's

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constant flow.

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And so the the big joke.

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I never got stationed on a ship , but the big joke on the ship

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is when, the when you see the CT swim team running for the deck,

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you should probably follow them over the side of ship, because

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those guys see the stuff first.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that is, that's really interesting.

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You know, like how they train their people.

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You know, did you get the sense that I mean the training was,

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you know, top notch, top tier training?

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I, you know, i would think that performing under that kind of

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you know stress, it really Really ingrains those skills

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into you if you pass it.

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You know, did you feel the same ?

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Speaker 2: I Did.

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I felt like the equipment that we had Might have been a little

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outdated, but some insulators that we have were pretty

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high-tech and Really, when you look at telemetry and we look at

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RF and stuff like that, that doesn't change.

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So literally some of the radios that they use back during you

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know, world War two will still work today.

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Oh, wow, may not, may not be a secure, but you know that that

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type of technology still works and that the, the theory, the

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antenna theory and its one tree and all That's still remains.

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Speaker 1: So you know, to talk about a little bit more about

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signals, intelligence, you know, specifically with the Chinese

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spy balloon, right, you know?

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I Obviously know, yeah, like they can, they can gather things

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from where they were doing it and all that sort of stuff,

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right?

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I don't know what things they could actually intercept and

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whatnot.

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You know, the first objection that I would think of in my head

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is Well, aren't we using like technology from like the 60s in

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those missile bunkers?

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You know, that isn't even connected to anything, it still

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runs off of a floppy, like, how is it, you know, how is that

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actually going to pick up anything that they don't already

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know?

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Well, can you talk about what it could potentially be picking

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up?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely.

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So.

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The reason why it's going over the installation is it was going

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over I'm sure the payload included some sort of either

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video surveillance or some sort of imagery, you know, analysis

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capability.

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Right On top of that they probably had some sort of HF or

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UHF antennas, some sort of to pick up RF, right.

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So they go over these bases, and a lot of these bases were

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locations close to ICBMs, and so what they're doing is they're

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gathering all the telemetry they can within that area, not only

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to identify the ICBMs and the capabilities of those which I'm

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sure they already know, but also to confirm other things, other

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you know, points of interest.

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You know you may have a comms, a comms shack over here on part

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of the base and they're going to pick up that telemetry and map

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that out, sort of like we saw with Russia when they bombed the

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, the base that was close to the Polish border.

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The reason why they did that was because we're picking up

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telemetry and and data emsy data from phones From that base that

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were UK based emsys.

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So they knew that UK soldiers at some point were either at

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that base or at that base currently, and so that's why

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they launched the attack on that base.

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Hmm, Interesting.

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Speaker 1: You know, do you kind of see it as like a precursor

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for, you know, potentially like a prolonged engagement even, and

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I think that you might be more More qualified to actually talk

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about it, you know, than anyone else I've ever had on Because of

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the time frame that you were serving?

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you know, like I Didn't realize , obviously, like back then

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until fairly recently, that you know, the first thing that we

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did when we went into Iraq, before we even Put boots on the

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ground, was intercept all all communications shut down, you

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know power, water, sewage, all of that right, and we were

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intercepting everything.

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So, like there there wasn't anything that we didn't know

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that was going on in the country Deed.

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So do you take that experience and kind of map it to maybe

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what's going on right now in the world?

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Speaker 2: 100%.

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I mean I'd have to be like completely naive to think that

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it doesn't play a big part in what's going on.

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I mean, when you look at the ongoing engagement, let's roll

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back to when I was contractor at USGF comm and I was doing

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computer network defense in the cell there, and The one of the

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nights I was working was a very first attack that I saw from

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Titan rain, operation tight rain , which was Chinese actors that

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were attacking US military sites , and so that was my first

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interaction with the Chinese back, and that was back in 2003

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or four.

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That's all been declassified Now you can look at Pediate.

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But starting from there and moving onward right, so you saw

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all the Insider threat espionage from China on the West Coast

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and all the tech firms you know many years ago and It's just a

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gradual effect.

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Then they switched over to healthcare and you saw, you know

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, during the pandemic, the Chinese and Houston at the

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medical center dumping and burning documents in their

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little embassy Because they've been found out.

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So it's an ongoing cat and mouse game, but but let's not

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forget that the US is engaged in that as well.

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We do the same things.

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We have a very robust espionage and clandestine intelligence

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agencies that really do top-notch and very technical

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type espionage and surveillance and collection, so we're very

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capable of doing the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, 100%.

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You know, and I think I heard a quote right from It was.

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It was in a book, I think, by Andy Greenberg, where you know

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he was talking to one of these like black market, you know,

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hackers, slash dealer type of people and You know he asked him

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like, would you ever sell a weapon that you would knowingly

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Have intelligence that it's going to be used against America

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?

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and the guy's response was actually You know kind of kind

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of opening I.

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I opening to me right is because he said, well, it

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depends on you know What, where you're looking at it from,

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because to Iran, america is a bad, bad guy.

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Well, maybe I'm a little bit more on That side of the

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spectrum and so I agree with them.

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I can see how America would be bad, or Russia, or China, and

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it's it's always interesting to me, you know, just hearing about

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what we're, what we're actually doing, you know what we're

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actually capable of doing.

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I have a friend in the in the Navy and He he does, he does

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some stuff with the cyber department in the Navy and I was

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talking to him about, you know, going down this career path

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right, this is years ago, like when I was in college and

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whatnot.

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And He said you know, the first couple weeks are gonna be like

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a culture shock, because you're the things that you think are

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impossible Right now, that can't possibly exist, can't, you know

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, possibly be Penetrated, like they're going to tell you like,

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hey, we're breaking this via this tool and it's gonna blow

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your mind and then, after that, you're gonna have to adjust

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Everything that's going on around you.

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Did that kind of happen to you as well, when you, when you got

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in and you started to learn about the capabilities and

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whatnot?

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Speaker 2: Well, so when I first got in, it was it was kind of

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weird because I Kind of knew the capabilities already because I

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was so close.

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I was literally born at Walter Reed, right there next to an

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essay like that.

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That was my birth hospital, so it's kind of like attached to

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that whole type of I guess industry or that whole culture

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from an early age.

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My godfather was a linguist, a Russian linguist on a sub during

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the Cold War, so it Wasn't weird for me.

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It wasn't.

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It wasn't a shock Going into it .

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What was really a shock was when I went into the military and I

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got the access, i got the clearance and then started

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seeing the things that that access pertain to and Seeing the

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differences between what the media portrays and what's

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actually being conducted and for what reasons.

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That's what was shocking.

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The rest of it was just kind of a transition.

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Same thing with going into cyber.

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You know, i left the military and went directly into, you know

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, defense in cyber And walked right into a fire pit because I

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walked right into Titan rain like that same year.

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So you know, i didn't really have a chance to sit down and go

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.

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Wow, that was kind of a weird transition To me.

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It was fast-paced and just from one thing to the next.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting how, i Guess it's

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interesting how the varying Speeds can exist within the

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government, right, just overall.

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Right, because I did a little bit of work with some agencies

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in the beginning of my career and I mean it would take them so

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long Just to approve me to come on site and I mean it would be

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like a whole month or deal, you know, just for me to come on

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site and then they were never ready and it was a mess, right.

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And so when I hear from people like you that are saying like oh

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, this is a fast-paced environment And you're learning

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different things all the time, you know, it's like I have to

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like reshift My thinking, almost , you know, because you you're

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in a very different department and team.

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Then what I was experienced with, right, like I was working

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with a very slow pace, slow environment, not much is going

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to change.

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With telecom, you know, at an agency, when you deploy in a via

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system or a Cisco system, you know it's not much is changing.

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But in your world it would be rapid change Would there be?

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Would there be like knowledge dumps, almost, or intelligence

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briefs that Get you up to speed on a regular basis?

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or how did you manage it?

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Speaker 2: Oh, every day, every day there was, there was a brief

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with the J6 That was the head of that directorate.

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Then we had the morning calls with the NSA Going over.

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You know the different operations that were underway

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and what IOC's look for As far as managing it.

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Like again, like it, even as a contractor I still felt like I

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was in the military and it was still that expectation that

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fast-paced It's funny, bringing up Telecom, because that was one

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of my first red teaming experiences was breaking into

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voice, because that breaking voice and intercepting voices is

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my specialty.

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And so I worked for a superior micro labs and I helped create

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the distro.

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Why she wrote the distro vast, which is all about voice

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interception.

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Speaker 1: Oh Yeah, it's um.

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You know, from my perspective, right like I, i I managed or I

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handled at least a emergency.

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You know a E-901 system, right, that Would give enhanced

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information when someone would call 911 and Me, being the

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security mind that I am, i'm looking at the security of this

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system And I'm being told by my developers, by the engineers,

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like, oh, this past, you know this military certification or

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whatever You know, so it has to be secure.

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I, and you know, come to find out, after you run the security

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Stig, that it that everyone wanted you to run the whole app

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didn't even work.

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I mean, it was like it was insane, like, guys, did you ever

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run this?

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Like, how did we pass this certification?

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And you claim it's still operable?

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because, like, i have to make 50 more changes after I run this

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thing just to get it halfway functioning.

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And it was a, it was an interesting time, because I feel

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like, maybe even now, right, telecom is kind of overlooked in

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terms of security.

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You know, like, i know a CEO of a telecom company and security

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is like really on the back burner almost, but that's a

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really sensitive place.

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You know that attackers can obviously get a foothold in and

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they would never know right That that happened, and it's an easy

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way to gleam intelligence, is that?

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do you think that that's true back then and today, or has it

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changed at all?

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Speaker 2: Oh, 100% The attacks that we came up with at Superior

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Viper Labs.

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The Secret Service actually would come and watch our demos

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of our new attack tools.

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Well, because back then our focus was Cisco.

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Cisco was the most widely deployed voice technology on the

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planet.

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So we focus strictly on Cisco.

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And if people really knew the vulnerabilities that that were

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contained within the call manager and within the protocols

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and the ways deployed, it would blow their mind.

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And not only that, but a void packet.

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Let's take a void packet, for instance.

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Right, a regular packet versus a void packet, a data packet,

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right.

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So the void packet besides the header, besides the you know the

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very first section.

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There's a lot of open space and a void packet.

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And what can you do with that?

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You can take whole databases, chunk databases, put in void

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packets, shuffle it out the door through port 5060 or whatever

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high port you want to use, and the person on the other end

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recompiles all database.

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And who here, or listening to the podcast, actually has IDS

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sensors or AI sensors on voice networks?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not something, not something I even

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think about.

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You know, like that's wow, i never thought about it being

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exploited that way.

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Which is interesting because I look at, you know, i would look

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at the packets, i would look at the different traffic and I just

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wasn't looking for that.

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You know, it's a very, it's an interesting mindset, you know,

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do you think that you found that mindset in the service, where

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you're not looking at something for its utility necessarily,

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you're looking for the gaps, you're testing different things?

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You know, do you think that that training kind of ingrains

00:21:34
that into you?

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Because I mean, it's a whole, it's a whole different mentality

00:21:38
, right, it's a whole different mindset.

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What you just, what you just mentioned right there, it's

00:21:42
something completely different.

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Like I didn't even think of it, you know Well.

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So, like my mindset and I talk about this a lot my first

00:21:49
speaking tour is called Inside the Mind of a Hacker And in that

00:21:54
I talk about.

00:21:54
Speaker 2: You know we're all born into this world as infants,

00:21:56
as hackers.

00:21:57
We're all hackers.

00:21:57
We have to learn how to talk, walk, eat all that stuff right.

00:22:04
So we're basically hacking our own environment.

00:22:07
Some people lose that mindset as they get older.

00:22:09
You know that child, you know imagination, you know they're

00:22:13
just like you know they're just like you know imagination and

00:22:17
challenge and you know that thinking that out of the box

00:22:20
thinking Some people as a mature , some people lose that I never,

00:22:26
i've never seen to have lost that.

00:22:28
I still have it.

00:22:29
I still want to take things apart.

00:22:30
I still want to see how things work.

00:22:32
I still want to see what I can create And I think it's that

00:22:37
mindset that really fosters you know what I do.

00:22:41
Now The military really actually almost put a damper on that

00:22:45
because it's very regimented and it doesn't allow that outside

00:22:49
the box thinking.

00:22:50
This is how you're going to think, this is how you're going

00:22:52
to react within these parameters , with these variables, and you

00:22:56
know, with that equation, this is what the operation is going

00:22:58
to look like.

00:22:58
It's very black and white, which fed the other part of me

00:23:02
because I'm neurodiverse, and so the black and white I get and I

00:23:06
thrived well in that environment because of the fact

00:23:09
that it was black and white and you went to expect.

00:23:11
Speaker 1: Hmm, that's interesting.

00:23:14
You know I always wondered about that, right, because cyber

00:23:18
is such a it's an evolving area .

00:23:22
You know, everything can change in the blink of an eye.

00:23:25
And you know, I would assume missions, whole missions, can be

00:23:30
kind of thwarted just based on a reaction from an adversary,

00:23:35
that that you didn't expect, that you didn't account for,

00:23:38
that you didn't know, maybe this kind of attack existed, right,

00:23:41
and now you have to change everything.

00:23:43
You know just someone on the outside that's never been in, to

00:23:48
me it's like, okay, it just makes sense that this would be

00:23:50
more, more fluid, right, but that also breaks like military

00:23:57
culture, right.

00:23:59
And so that would be very difficult for them to kind of

00:24:03
rationalize.

00:24:03
That I could see.

00:24:06
Speaker 2: It's each person.

00:24:07
Each person has their own job and each person has been over

00:24:11
that mission and been over their responsibility so many times in

00:24:14
their head before that that mission gets deployed.

00:24:17
And so when, when you're in that scenario, it almost becomes

00:24:22
like muscle memory, if that makes sense, hmm, yeah.

00:24:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense And that's that's what

00:24:29
I've heard too from other people that were in.

00:24:31
You know similar similar positions.

00:24:34
So, after the military, after intelligence work, right, where

00:24:41
did you go from there?

00:24:42
What did you start diving into?

00:24:44
Because someone with that skill set, i mean you could do great

00:24:48
good, you could do great harm.

00:24:49
You know, like you have, you know the toolkit of both sides,

00:24:54
right, like what?

00:24:55
what did you start engaging down?

00:24:57
Because I would imagine it'd be pretty difficult, honestly,

00:25:01
because you know what's out there, you know the capabilities

00:25:04
that are out there.

00:25:04
You may not even have access to those capabilities anymore, but

00:25:09
you have that knowledge, you have that skill set, and so

00:25:12
using that skill set and kind of , you know, fanning the flame of

00:25:16
curiosity would become extremely important, i would

00:25:19
imagine.

00:25:21
Speaker 2: Absolutely So.

00:25:22
When I left the military, like I said, when I was in, there

00:25:26
were some things that I didn't quite agree with.

00:25:27
After I got out, there were things still continuing that I

00:25:32
didn't agree with, and so I tend to find people with like minds,

00:25:36
and I found those people, and those people ended up becoming a

00:25:40
hacktivist group And a lot of, like you said, good things and

00:25:44
bad things came out of it, right , so I was maintaining a full

00:25:47
time job Like let's take, for instance, occupy Wall Street.

00:25:49
I was actually working in Bank of America while working within

00:25:53
a hacktivist group that was attacking Bank of America.

00:25:55
Oh, wow.

00:25:57
So I played both sides of the fence.

00:25:58
It was like almost like a double agent, almost.

00:26:01
So I did that for a long time When I was at Bank of America.

00:26:08
That's when you that the FBI was not too far away, and so the

00:26:15
investigation I found out went from somewhere between 2003 all

00:26:19
the way to 2016.

00:26:20
And that's when I had my meeting with the Department of

00:26:25
Justice, us Attorney's Office, secret Service and some other

00:26:29
sharp people in suits in Houston , and that's when I became an

00:26:33
informant for the FBI, working in a Russian APT group during

00:26:39
the 2016 election Wow.

00:26:42
Speaker 1: That's.

00:26:42
I mean, it's like every every five minutes you're saying

00:26:48
something that like blows my mind And it's like, all right,

00:26:51
let's, let's go down this rabbit hole, right?

00:26:54
So you know when you're at Bank of America and you're working

00:26:58
both sides of it, were you okay?

00:27:04
so I guess this is a complicated question to ask,

00:27:08
right?

00:27:08
Were you giving the hack to this group, potentially like

00:27:14
minor footholds, or informing them, right of minor footholds,

00:27:20
like, oh, they don't have anything here, they don't have

00:27:22
anything here.

00:27:23
Not giving them the keys of the kingdom?

00:27:25
of course, right, but were you threading that needle and how

00:27:29
did you figure out how to do that?

00:27:33
Speaker 2: So I was actually on the threat intelligence team,

00:27:37
wow And I was in the bank, within the bank and on the

00:27:40
corporate executive side, so I knew what they were looking for

00:27:46
and what they were looking at.

00:27:47
I don't know how much of what I did at Bank of America was

00:27:52
actually in the stack of charges that the Department of Justice

00:27:56
put in front of me, but I'm sure that some of that was in there

00:28:02
And I was kind of relaying information.

00:28:03
But still, you know, i had contacts you know active

00:28:07
contacts and communicated back and forth on bank processes and

00:28:11
stuff like that.

00:28:13
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, okay, That makes sense.

00:28:16
So then, okay, you know, in terms of the investigation

00:28:21
timeline, right, 13 years is that basically like right when

00:28:26
you got out of intelligence work in the military?

00:28:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what's weird is when I left the

00:28:33
military I immediately ended up on a no fly list for a short

00:28:39
period of time, which was really shocking.

00:28:40
I was like wait a minute, i just I just left the military

00:28:43
right of clearance and then I get, i get one to the no fly

00:28:46
list.

00:28:46
But rewind back to when I was getting my clearance and I was

00:28:52
at Corey station.

00:28:53
I had some contacts in Russia that had sent me a letter.

00:28:57
There were friends of mine and sent me a letter to the base,

00:29:01
which was not very smart working back in retrospect, but I think

00:29:06
that may have raised some red flags And I think since then

00:29:11
they had kind of kept their eye on me pretty much.

00:29:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would make sense because, like they don't

00:29:20
do that at least my outside understanding right they don't

00:29:24
do that for everyone.

00:29:25
As soon as they leave, that sort of role, they're not

00:29:29
actively investigating you.

00:29:30
You know they're probably doing like some sort of psych vows

00:29:34
and you know judgments of like, hey, what does he have access to

00:29:38
?

00:29:38
Do you think that he's potentially a flight risk, or

00:29:42
something like that.

00:29:42
You know, but I've never heard of that sort of that sort of

00:29:49
reaction.

00:29:50
I guess right, but even on the no fly list, i mean like even

00:29:57
technically, you know why wouldn't you leave?

00:29:58
you still have the clearance, it's just not active.

00:30:01
You still have it for was it like five years or something

00:30:04
like that?

00:30:05
Speaker 2: Five years and you have after that you have to have

00:30:07
like a corporate sponsor or somebody sponsored, right.

00:30:09
Yeah, the weirdest thing was, like even after that, like even

00:30:15
after I got off the no fly list, me and Chris Roberts actually

00:30:18
used to compare boarding passes on Twitter the four S's, because

00:30:24
it's supposed to be random, but for some reason it was not

00:30:27
random for me.

00:30:27
Every time I flew I got the four S's.

00:30:32
Speaker 1: What's the four S's?

00:30:34
Speaker 2: Selective security screening something.

00:30:38
So it's a random.

00:30:40
oh, we're going to pull you aside and don't pull your shit

00:30:42
out and look through all your stuff and figure out and ask you

00:30:45
a bunch of questions and make sure you're not one of the bad

00:30:48
guys looking for.

00:30:52
Speaker 1: Wow, i I didn't even realize that.

00:30:54
I'm going to look next time when I fly, probably going to

00:30:57
Def Con, so I'll check it out then.

00:30:59
You know, do you ever?

00:31:02
do you ever get nervous getting on a plane with a bunch of

00:31:05
hackers going to Def Con?

00:31:07
It's like, all right, no one, no one fuck around right now.

00:31:10
All right, like I just want this thing to land safely.

00:31:12
All right, you ever get nervous cause I do.

00:31:16
Speaker 2: I don't get nervous in that aspect.

00:31:18
Now, if Chris is on the plane, if Chris Roberts is on the plane

00:31:22
, yeah, i may.

00:31:22
I may try to catch a later flight, but other than that, no,

00:31:26
not really.

00:31:27
Last time I went to.

00:31:28
Well, when I went to Europe one of the times I flew over on a

00:31:32
British Airways and was looking at the entertainment system and

00:31:37
was just kind of like messing around that network and watched

00:31:39
all the TVs pixelate and freeze on the back of the headrest And

00:31:43
I thought, oh, wow, this is really cool, it actually does

00:31:46
work.

00:31:46
But nothing to the extent of what Chris did.

00:31:50
And yeah, chris was on a plane.

00:31:51
I'd probably try to get into the flight.

00:31:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean I was surprised he could still fly.

00:31:56
So you know I had him on maybe.

00:32:00
You know I had him on maybe two years ago at this point And I

00:32:05
tried to.

00:32:05
I tried to bring it up because I like it's a you know there's a

00:32:09
New York Times article on it Like he did an interview on CNN

00:32:13
about it and everything And like he gave me like the silent,

00:32:17
like shut the fuck up If you want a screenshot.

00:32:23
Speaker 2: If you want a screenshot of the actual

00:32:25
interview on CNN, let me know, because I have it on my phone.

00:32:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a I don't know man.

00:32:35
That's just that I don't like flying, to begin with, you know.

00:32:39
And so like, yes, like I can, i know how to scan things.

00:32:46
I know how to do various things right.

00:32:49
I'm nowhere near as skilled as a pen tester.

00:32:51
I would literally not even call myself a script kitty.

00:32:55
Whatever's below that.

00:32:57
That's what I'm at right.

00:32:59
I don't like flying by default, and so I really try my hardest

00:33:05
to just focus on a movie when I'm flying, so I'm not freaking

00:33:09
out.

00:33:09
But Chris, over there, he's like seeing how far he could

00:33:13
take this thing.

00:33:16
Speaker 2: And that's that's, Chris, for you.

00:33:18
When I was on the flight to Europe, I was going over for my

00:33:21
speaking tour inside the mind of a hacker And I was doing my

00:33:24
slides on the plane And that's when I realized that my content

00:33:28
and my topics that I speak on I probably shouldn't do slides

00:33:32
with other people around that can see it, Because the next

00:33:35
thing I got was a tap on the shoulder and said are you still

00:33:38
wanted by the FBI?

00:33:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, i could see how that would like scare

00:33:45
the shit out of people at 35 feet, you know doing that whole

00:33:50
thing, man.

00:33:53
so so after where were we?

00:33:59
we were at Bank of America doing the talk to the, the agencies

00:34:06
and whatnot, about their 13 year investigation.

00:34:09
Right, that is one that's an insanely long time to be

00:34:16
investigating anything.

00:34:17
I feel, right.

00:34:19
I feel like the majority of their investigations close

00:34:25
within a couple of years, within two, three years, you know,

00:34:29
that's at least what I would think.

00:34:30
Again, someone on the outside, i don't know what the hell any of

00:34:33
that world is like, or anything like that.

00:34:36
I wanted to get into that world And now I'm going to split the

00:34:40
space where it's like I don't know if that makes sense for me

00:34:43
to go risk my life like that, you know.

00:34:45
So, so you're, you're doing this work with the Russian APT

00:34:51
group.

00:34:51
Can we talk about that a little bit?

00:34:54
because the reason why I want to talk about it, right, is

00:34:58
because that election is extremely controversial, right,

00:35:03
and even when Trump was being, you know, i guess, looked at, or

00:35:08
whatever it might have been, right, it seemed like one side

00:35:13
was saying, oh no, that's completely incorrect, completely

00:35:17
false.

00:35:18
Russia wouldn't do that.

00:35:20
They don't have the capabilities.

00:35:22
The system isn't set up in that way for it to be vulnerable to

00:35:26
that.

00:35:28
And then we have, you know, people that are coming out that

00:35:33
like completely manipulated social media.

00:35:36
I can't think of a company name right now, but I think it's

00:35:43
still on Netflix.

00:35:44
It's like the greatest hack or something like that right, where

00:35:47
they hacked elections and literally manipulated social

00:35:51
media around.

00:35:53
You know false statements and just made things up to get

00:35:57
people to win.

00:35:57
What was that like?

00:36:01
You know?

00:36:01
what were you specifically working on?

00:36:04
If you could tell?

00:36:06
Speaker 2: me?

00:36:06
Sure, absolutely.

00:36:07
You're speaking of.

00:36:08
You're speaking about Cambridge Analytica and their work around

00:36:12
the elections.

00:36:13
So APT 28 was the group I was in before I was even informed.

00:36:21
The reason why probably the only reason why I didn't go to

00:36:25
jail is because I had that connection and I had a really

00:36:28
good lawyer, my lawyer, david Adler.

00:36:31
He's former CIA.

00:36:32
You can look him up.

00:36:33
He's a Houston lawyer and he still does a lot of work for the

00:36:36
US Attorney's Office And I think that had a lot to do with

00:36:40
the way I was treated as well.

00:36:43
Yeah, working in the as an informant, it was really

00:36:47
interesting.

00:36:47
To begin with, i had to sign what's called an OIA, which is

00:36:51
an otherwise illegal activity form.

00:36:53
So it's basically saying the FBI was saying okay, we're going

00:36:57
to have you do some illegal shit, but if you go outside

00:37:00
these parameters, not only are we going to charge you for what

00:37:03
we told you to do, but everything else that you did

00:37:06
along the way.

00:37:07
And I had to sign those.

00:37:09
Like once a month They would take me out to lunch and I would

00:37:15
give them what I collected from the group And then they would.

00:37:20
You know, sometimes they would give me money, sometimes they

00:37:23
wouldn't.

00:37:23
It just it was really weird situation.

00:37:25
At one point, at the very beginning, they want to give me

00:37:29
a laptop because I told them I wasn't going to do this on my

00:37:31
home computer.

00:37:31
And they wanted to give me a laptop of theirs and said no, no

00:37:35
, no, just give me some money and I'll go buy my own.

00:37:38
So from the very beginning I was really careful with how I dealt

00:37:40
with them, and with good reason , because after I was done with

00:37:47
my years in the form, i contacted him and it was about

00:37:51
the election.

00:37:52
Some of the questions I had, some of the sources I was

00:37:54
looking at wasn't really matching up with what I was

00:37:57
hearing, what I was seeing.

00:37:58
And after I'd contacted about that, then they kind of ghosted

00:38:03
me.

00:38:03
And that's when I reached out to one of the lawyers and I said

00:38:06
you know, i've heard from them.

00:38:07
Am I good to go?

00:38:09
And apparently, you know, everybody thought was good to go

00:38:12
.

00:38:12
Well, i did, on a plane and next to him.

00:38:15
No, i'm stuck in Europe.

00:38:18
So that's?

00:38:21
Speaker 1: I mean, that's, that's pretty wild, But it's not

00:38:27
.

00:38:27
You know, it's not out of the realm of possibility, right?

00:38:30
I mean, I guess, i guess, if they don't want me in the

00:38:34
country, right, the next time I go to Germany.

00:38:36
they just revoked my passport and guess what?

00:38:38
I can't leave now you know.

00:38:41
Speaker 2: Well, that's the method of operation for them.

00:38:43
If you look at what they did with Snowden, same thing.

00:38:46
He left to go to Singapore.

00:38:48
As soon as he left, revoked passport.

00:38:50
That's their method of operation.

00:38:53
If they don't want somebody in the country, they feel like

00:38:57
somebody could pose some sort of not necessarily a threat, but,

00:39:02
you know, pose some sort of conflict, then that's the

00:39:06
easiest way to get rid of them.

00:39:07
As soon as they leave, just revoke their passport.

00:39:11
Speaker 1: So you think, potentially you know you had,

00:39:15
you had a different narrative than what was being told in the

00:39:19
media And they want to potentially make sure that you

00:39:25
couldn't deliver that message in a credible way, even though you

00:39:29
know you were probably the one that had the most credible

00:39:32
information.

00:39:33
Do you think that that might have been what it was?

00:39:36
Speaker 2: Well, i know for a fact that that played a part in

00:39:39
it.

00:39:39
How much of it, i don't know.

00:39:41
I do know that when I spoke in Egypt so I was stranded in

00:39:46
London and I had I was invited by the Ministry of Defense in

00:39:50
Cairo, egypt, to actually speak at a conference center, their

00:39:53
national cybersecurity conference in Cairo.

00:39:55
And so I gave my talk and they brought a laptop out to the

00:39:58
podium so that I could see the crowd And then my image was up

00:40:03
on the big screen And so I'm giving this talk in Cairo and

00:40:06
then immediately after the talk, you get a LinkedIn message from

00:40:09
somebody from the State Department saying Hey, i just

00:40:11
saw your talk, i'm here in Cairo , let's go grab a beer.

00:40:14
And I said, ha, jokes on you, i'm not in Cairo.

00:40:16
So I know that that carries over .

00:40:18
I know that they, they, they still keep that, that

00:40:21
information.

00:40:21
I know they still want to kind of like keep an eye on things

00:40:27
And of course I've had, like former FBI and CIA on my podcast

00:40:30
.

00:40:30
So you know it's not like I'm trying to shy away from it, you

00:40:35
know.

00:40:35
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, that makes sense.

00:40:37
So, you know, if we could circle back to the election.

00:40:43
um, you know, maybe the number one question that I get

00:40:49
personally from people that are not in security is, like you

00:40:53
know, how is that even possible?

00:40:55
Right, because these election systems aren't connected In my

00:40:59
mind.

00:41:00
I don't know.

00:41:00
I've never looked at it, i've never tried to look at election

00:41:04
systems or anything but at DEF CON.

00:41:06
right, they've got 10 year olds up on stage and they breach

00:41:10
these election machines within 30 seconds or whatever.

00:41:13
So if a 10 year old can do it, surely Russia could do it right,

00:41:18
or they could do something more advanced and you know,

00:41:22
potentially intercept the signals right around, how it's

00:41:27
being transmitted or counted, or whatever it might be right?

00:41:30
Can you talk about maybe some of those attacks that you saw or

00:41:37
that you knew that were going on or trying to be planned,

00:41:39
anything like that?

00:41:42
Speaker 2: Sure.

00:41:42
So I can tell you that the real concern that they had was not

00:41:48
the actual voting architecture, like the voting machines actual

00:41:53
voting process The Department of Justice was more concerned

00:41:57
about I don't know if you remember that was the same

00:42:00
timeframe as a DNC email leak.

00:42:02
They were more concerned about that than they were voting

00:42:07
machines.

00:42:07
My focus was not even on voting machines.

00:42:09
My focus was on the operation to steal the DNC email database

00:42:17
And when it started pointing in a different direction as the

00:42:21
source of the attack to be a domestic source, that's when

00:42:25
things went cold.

00:42:27
Speaker 1: Huh, Interesting.

00:42:30
That is extremely interesting.

00:42:33
Okay, so we're at 2016.

00:42:36
Where do you go from there?

00:42:38
I mean, how do you even scratch that itch anymore, right?

00:42:42
Because I mean, at least in my mind, you're doing the coolest

00:42:44
stuff out there.

00:42:45
I couldn't even imagine trying to scratch that itch, right,

00:42:50
Like what's your in that world?

00:42:51
It's like impossible to do anything.

00:42:54
That compares in my opinion.

00:42:58
Speaker 2: Well, i went to work for an oil and gas company in

00:43:01
Houston and was traveling the world.

00:43:03
I was going to Mexico, singapore, scotland and luckily

00:43:11
I was still working for that company when the State

00:43:15
Department voted my passport.

00:43:16
So I actually worked over there for an American company for a

00:43:19
short period of time, but yeah, i still.

00:43:23
You know, i worked a nine to five job.

00:43:25
Same thing I did forever.

00:43:27
I just tried to keep my background kind of quiet.

00:43:30
I'm excited to know how people would take it Once I got over to

00:43:35
Europe and I got revoked and I started doing the public

00:43:38
speaking.

00:43:39
Public speaking actually started at Robert Gordon University And

00:43:43
a vendor for the company I was working for he was one of our

00:43:47
vendors for a security project had heard my background and

00:43:51
wanted to have me speak the next time I was going to be in

00:43:54
Scotland.

00:43:54
So I spoke in front of like 40 people at Robert Gordon

00:43:58
University and from there it just took off.

00:44:00
Next thing I was speaking at like the Manchester United

00:44:04
soccer stadiums.

00:44:05
So it really took off from there and I started helping with

00:44:09
the London Met Police and started doing mentoring for the

00:44:13
kids who are on probation for cyber crime and served time in

00:44:15
prison, started doing their intervention workshop with them,

00:44:20
became a board member of a couple of companies in the UK.

00:44:23
Just things really took off once I got stranded over the UK.

00:44:31
I can't explain what happened and why, and then, once I got

00:44:34
back and started the podcast, it just continued to.

00:44:38
Speaker 1: How long were you stranded in the UK, for You know

00:44:42
it's hard to.

00:44:44
Speaker 2: it's hard for me to put that in a timeline because

00:44:46
it's all kind of a blur, but somewhere between almost between

00:44:50
three and four years Wow.

00:44:54
Speaker 1: Man, that's a really long time to not be able to come

00:44:57
home.

00:44:57
You know, especially when you intended to come home and you're

00:45:02
probably thinking to yourself, okay, next month will be the

00:45:06
month I get to go home.

00:45:08
And you know like I mean, and even Even then, it's like the

00:45:13
bills keep coming in.

00:45:15
You know like you still got to pay the bills, maybe you had a

00:45:19
mortgage or whatever.

00:45:20
You know like still got to pay those things, so got to take

00:45:23
care of your family and whatnot, like that's.

00:45:24
That's an incredibly difficult situation.

00:45:30
Speaker 2: It's one of the most inhumane things I've ever seen

00:45:33
our government do to anybody is to basically remove them from

00:45:39
their own country and freeze their bank accounts because

00:45:43
basically you're trying to kill that person.

00:45:44
You know they keep.

00:45:46
You know they can't work in that country.

00:45:47
How are they going to get the money for food?

00:45:49
You've frozen their bank accounts.

00:45:51
They have no money now.

00:45:52
What are they going to do?

00:45:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's.

00:45:58
Speaker 2: But it's quiet.

00:46:00
Speaker 1: Right, i mean, what did I?

00:46:04
you know, i don't understand the end game there.

00:46:06
Right, because if, what, let's assume, right, you knew

00:46:10
something that they didn't want out in the media, that was being

00:46:14
perpetrated, you know, by the right or the left, and they

00:46:19
didn't want someone to validate it.

00:46:21
Right?

00:46:22
Don't you think they should just leave that person alone?

00:46:26
I mean, why would you push them to that place?

00:46:30
Right, Because it's only going to to me.

00:46:33
Like if, if I was in that situation, that happens to me.

00:46:36
I mean, it's like, okay, now it's fair game.

00:46:39
Like because you've cut me off, you've basically metaphorically

00:46:44
killed me, right, so now I'm just going to dump all that I

00:46:47
know and you're, you're going to kill me and it will be good,

00:46:52
you know?

00:46:52
like, at least that's my self destructive side mentality of it

00:46:57
.

00:46:57
Right, like, i'm sure after I sleep on it I would rethink

00:47:01
things, but So I'll give you something to think about.

00:47:05
Speaker 2: So think about this for a second.

00:47:07
If, if you weren't vocal about what happened to you, do you

00:47:13
think it would be easier or harder to get rid of you?

00:47:15
If you're vocal and you're constantly telling people about

00:47:20
what happened, and this is what the government did to me And

00:47:23
this is what they're doing to other people now and you know,

00:47:27
constantly banging that drum, you become a voice.

00:47:29
For that It's harder to take out that voice than it is

00:47:32
someone who's super quiet, not know.

00:47:34
It's a good point.

00:47:38
One of the best pieces of advice I got was from a former

00:47:42
former agent and he said just keep speaking the truth.

00:47:46
Just keep speaking and they'll never mess with you again.

00:47:50
Speaker 1: Hmm, so did you start your podcast when you were

00:47:56
still over in the UK or when it when it?

00:47:59
when you came back, you started it.

00:48:02
Speaker 2: So I can't.

00:48:03
When I came back, i was living with a good friend of mine from

00:48:05
high school in Alabama and we lived on a mountain.

00:48:08
We had no neighbors.

00:48:10
It was like out of nowhere and and We were just sitting around

00:48:14
the bar one night in the house and drinking a glass of bourbon

00:48:17
and start talking about, you know, podcasts, because I'm a

00:48:20
big fan of Joe Rogan.

00:48:21
He likes Tom Segure and two bears, one cave or whatever.

00:48:25
So we're talking about podcasts and he's like you know, you have

00:48:28
an awesome story, but more people need to hear it.

00:48:31
Like you're not getting it out there.

00:48:32
Like people need to know what happened, not just because of

00:48:35
the fact that you know what they did to you by leaving you

00:48:38
Europe, but the fact that you're a veteran, a disabled man, yeah

00:48:41
, um.

00:48:41
So we did like a short podcast.

00:48:44
The first was like me just talking right, and It went from

00:48:49
that.

00:48:49
We had a live podcasters probably like 50 people, i think

00:48:52
the first podcast and it went from that to Bring in a couple

00:48:56
guests at a time.

00:48:57
And then my podcast went from four hour long podcast to now

00:49:02
they're like an hour, but I was doing.

00:49:04
I was doing four hour podcasts, doing questions and answers and

00:49:07
I was just the machine when I first got back, um, but it was

00:49:11
like it was therapy for me.

00:49:12
It helped me, like, get acclimated back to the US post

00:49:16
pandemic, because when I left The pandemic hadn't hit here yet

00:49:20
, so it was a total culture shock.

00:49:23
And then you know just the environmental shock going from

00:49:26
London to on the top of mountain Alabama.

00:49:28
So it just it took some time, but with that podcast it was

00:49:31
really therapeutic for me.

00:49:33
Speaker 1: Oh, Yeah, man, doing a four hour podcast.

00:49:38
I mean, i couldn't, even, i couldn't even imagine.

00:49:41
Now I'm contemplating, you know , doing like a two hour round

00:49:46
table podcast, right, having a couple different people and just

00:49:49
talking about different things.

00:49:52
Speaker 2: Um, i 24 hour podcast .

00:49:56
Lord, it's what my first in the haunted hacker podcast first

00:50:01
anniversary show.

00:50:02
I had Jack Scott on a bunch of other people I Murphy, mr Murphy

00:50:08
, captain zap, we had him on, but it literally was all nearly

00:50:13
24 hours.

00:50:14
I had people staying up all night and I kept the podcast

00:50:17
going.

00:50:20
Speaker 1: That is wild.

00:50:21
That really is wild.

00:50:23
So you actually started it pretty close to 2020, with with

00:50:28
COVID and everything like that.

00:50:30
I, i started this podcast in 2021.

00:50:33
I wish I would have just done it in 2020.

00:50:36
I would have gotten Probably a lot more traction.

00:50:38
I wonder what that would have been like.

00:50:40
Right, how, what are some of the challenges of podcasting

00:50:48
that you have faced that you know other people Probably don't

00:50:52
even think about it or know that they're challenges you know

00:50:55
, like I, i can rattle them off right, but it's different when

00:50:59
someone you know that has a even larger podcast in mind, someone

00:51:04
as experienced as you, you know facing these different

00:51:07
challenges.

00:51:09
Speaker 2: Well, dude, i tell you what like to be honest.

00:51:12
Like the only challenges I had from the beginning Was involving

00:51:17
other people.

00:51:17
I'll be, i'll be brutally honest and just really

00:51:21
transparent here.

00:51:22
Podcasting to me is super selfish, because I do it because

00:51:27
I want to talk to interesting people.

00:51:29
You know, i don't do it to to, you know, make somebody happy

00:51:34
over here.

00:51:35
I do it because I enjoy what I do and these people become

00:51:38
friends of mine if I don't know them.

00:51:39
But the only, the only hurdles I've ever had was involving

00:51:45
other people and Just technology failures.

00:51:48
Um, zoom is not been known to be the greatest platform for

00:51:52
podcasting, but it's my, it's my go-to.

00:51:55
But you know, i make it work.

00:51:57
It's a really cheap podcast, is very like unprofessional, but I

00:52:01
think that's why people like it is because it's just genuine.

00:52:03
You know, i don't hold anything back.

00:52:05
I don't sure you're coding thing, i don't worry about you

00:52:07
know, censoring things that are said.

00:52:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, i try to have that same mentality and I feel

00:52:14
like that mentality is Kind of lacking in the industry.

00:52:19
You know, like I Hear different podcasts and they're like

00:52:24
heavily edited, you know they're they're Really scripted almost.

00:52:29
You know, i have no, i've known notes right going into this

00:52:34
thing, like I looked at your LinkedIn for five minutes.

00:52:37
You know, and I'm more interested in having a good

00:52:40
conversation with someone, i'm more interested in getting to

00:52:43
know someone and Maybe somewhere down the line, you know, we're

00:52:48
at Def kind.

00:52:48
At the same time It's like hey, mike, you want to go have a

00:52:50
drink?

00:52:51
you know, like, let's hang out for a little bit.

00:52:54
You know something like that.

00:52:55
Speaker 2: Right, i'm more interested in the relationships,

00:52:58
exactly, i think the most important to me, for me, you

00:53:02
know, beneficial right, be able to hear those conversations and

00:53:06
then go from there, you know, oh Yeah one of the most important

00:53:10
parts for me about podcasting is just making that, that

00:53:13
connection and creating that friendship, because you know,

00:53:17
i've worked with Black girls hack.

00:53:20
I've had them on my my podcast, several different groups.

00:53:24
That's how I met Alyssa Knight I had her on my podcast.

00:53:27
Just making that connection, it's, it's the human, it's a

00:53:31
human element that really makes the podcast what it is.

00:53:35
And if you take a look at the most successful podcast on the

00:53:39
planet, joe Rogan is Jerry, his Joe Rogan experience.

00:53:42
It is so genuine and so raw and They're themselves that there's

00:53:48
no script, there's no hey, we're gonna talk about only this

00:53:50
topic today.

00:53:51
We're gonna see where the shit goes.

00:53:52
That's and that's the same approach I take.

00:53:54
You know, it's like having a glass of bourbon with somebody

00:53:57
and just sitting there shooting shit.

00:53:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, i think my my audience.

00:54:01
I feel like they really appreciate, you know, that free

00:54:06
flow form, right like I, i had no clue that you did signals

00:54:10
intelligence.

00:54:10
I had no clue that we were gonna talk about the Chinese spy

00:54:14
balloon.

00:54:14
I mean, i didn't even think about that thing in probably a

00:54:16
week, right Like why did that come into my mind, i don't know,

00:54:20
but it's probably perfect timing, right Like who better to

00:54:23
talk to about it?

00:54:23
you know, and now I get to tell my audience about it.

00:54:27
You know like it's, it's, It's interesting, it's like almost a

00:54:32
lost art that's coming back.

00:54:33
You know, just having a conversation with someone Not

00:54:37
having a script, i mean, like I'm terrible with scripts, you

00:54:40
know I, i used to have a coast and he would like try to script

00:54:44
out questions, and you know plot , where the episodes gonna go,

00:54:49
and You know we'd have fantastic episodes But at the end of it

00:54:54
he'd, he'd asked me hey, you know, did you look at any of the

00:54:57
script or anything?

00:54:58
I'm like dude, no, i didn't.

00:54:59
Man, like I don't know how to do that.

00:55:01
I don't know how to be anything other than Genuine.

00:55:05
I don't know how to be anything other than who I am.

00:55:07
you know.

00:55:08
If I have a question that comes to mind, i'm probably gonna ask

00:55:11
it, you know.

00:55:13
Speaker 2: Exactly, and that's what that's where I expect

00:55:16
people who are interviewing me to be.

00:55:17
You know, it's all about getting to know that person.

00:55:20
I can teach anybody.

00:55:21
I could teach a monkey, the zoo , how to do cybersecurity, right

00:55:25
?

00:55:25
It's not?

00:55:26
it's not rocket science, right It's?

00:55:29
it's a matter of this plus this equals this.

00:55:31
Everything's a variable into an equation.

00:55:33
So I can teach that.

00:55:35
But what I can't teach is interpersonal skills and be able

00:55:38
to communicate with people, and it seems like some of the young

00:55:41
analysts that I'm getting.

00:55:42
So I run a MDR like Man, you know, mitigate, detect and

00:55:47
respond like sock With some younger people that are fresh

00:55:51
out of college and and you know it's.

00:55:53
It's a different culture now, i think, and that communication

00:55:58
is that communication is key, but Teaching that at that age is

00:56:02
really hard.

00:56:03
But I think the podcast really helps to give kind of an example

00:56:07
of this is how you're supposed to communicate.

00:56:09
You know this, this is the lost art.

00:56:11
You know, i know you've been stuck at tiktok, you know, since

00:56:15
you're a teenager and now that you're an adult, let's, let's

00:56:18
communicate like humans.

00:56:21
Speaker 1: Right.

00:56:21
Well, mike, you know I really appreciate you coming on and I'm

00:56:25
I'm very Strict with my time, you know, because when I say

00:56:29
that my episodes an hour long, i don't want to hold my guests

00:56:32
beyond that.

00:56:33
I know that we all have busy schedules.

00:56:34
So, before I let you go, how about you tell my audience you

00:56:38
know where they could find you what your podcast is the haunted

00:56:42
hacker and Anywhere else?

00:56:45
you know that you may want to direct my audience.

00:56:48
Speaker 2: Sure, you could find my podcast, the video version,

00:56:51
on YouTube under hot hot hacker podcast.

00:56:54
It's also on Spotify audible, itunes, etc.

00:56:57
Pandora was audible streaming services also the haunted hacker

00:57:02
calm the website And also out of the 501 PC hackers for bets.

00:57:07
So if you want to help support bringing a person from active

00:57:12
duty service into cybersecurity And help them make that costly

00:57:15
transition, by all means contacting and let's get rolling

00:57:19
on that.

00:57:20
Speaker 1: Awesome, well, thanks , mike, i really appreciate you

00:57:23
coming on.

00:57:23
This is a fantastic conversation.

00:57:25
I Definitely want to have you back on, absolutely, i'll be

00:57:29
here.

00:57:30
Speaker 2: Just let me know.

00:57:31
Speaker 1: Awesome.

00:57:31
Well, thanks everyone.

00:57:33
I hope you enjoyed this episode .