A cybersecurity journey like no other awaits as we welcome a guest with a formidable background, shaped by their experiences in the Israeli military's elite 8200th unit. This exceptional career path led them from the rigors of military service to the academic halls of the Technion—Israel's very own MIT. We uncover how their military training instilled a unique blend of independence and early responsibility, setting the stage for their significant contributions to the tech world. The conversation flows seamlessly from past to present, as personal anecdotes bring a tangible sense of nostalgia, highlighting the timeless aspects of technology amidst its relentless evolution.
Our discussion takes a thrilling entrepreneurial turn as our guest shares their pioneering efforts in the realm of secure communication. From mobile graphics to R&D management, they recount their journey toward founding a company dedicated to privacy-focused smartphone solutions. The narrative of "Unplugged" unfolds—a venture born out of the pressing demand for secure, private devices. With the rise in privacy awareness and improved supply chain accessibility, our guest reveals how these factors have democratized innovation, allowing even small companies to make a mark in the hardware space.
The intricacies of mobile security and data privacy are laid bare as we compare Android and iPhone architectures. Our guest captivates us with their firsthand experience in a cybersecurity course, where Apple's preemptive patching contrasted sharply with a swift Android exploit. This conversation extends to the broader issues of data privacy, exploring how major tech companies manage user data and the monetization behind it. As we ponder the future of privacy and security in the digital age, our guest's insights illuminate the path forward, underscoring the multifaceted challenges and opportunities that lie ahead.
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Speaker 1: how's it going around ?
00:00:02
It's, uh, it's great to get you on the podcast.
00:00:04
You know, we kind of put this together I guess, for my
00:00:07
standards, right for scheduling a guest.
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We put it together like last minute, even though it was like
00:00:11
two months ago, yeah, at this point.
00:00:13
But like at this point in time, like with the podcast, it's
00:00:18
interesting, right, because I always want to get people on
00:00:22
like as quickly as possible.
00:00:23
But then I I look at my backlog and I'm like, well, shit, like
00:00:27
their, their episode wouldn't even go live for six months.
00:00:30
So it's like, okay, we got to push this out.
00:00:31
You know a bit like make it more reasonable and whatnot.
00:00:34
But yeah, it's a real, it's a real pleasure and honor to have
00:00:37
you on the podcast today.
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Speaker 2: Thank you.
00:00:39
It's very nice to be here, nice to, to, to have the opportunity
00:00:50
, uh, to present me and the company and be in this podcast.
00:00:51
Speaker 1: Thank you, yeah, yeah , absolutely.
00:00:52
You know, for, for those, for those not very familiar with the
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podcast, right, and how we kind of structure it, you know, I, I
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get guests pitched to me every single day, right, every single
00:01:03
day someone new is pitching me.
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This time, right, I actually pitched you to come on the show,
00:01:08
and when I do that, I don't do it very often, but when I do
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that, you know, it's because you do something really interesting
00:01:15
.
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You've created something really interesting that I believe in
00:01:19
personally, right.
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So I start everyone off with kind of giving their background.
00:01:23
What made you want to get into cybersecurity?
00:01:25
What made you get into IT?
00:01:26
Was there a point in time where you know, when you're looking
00:01:29
back, you're like, oh, that experience with my dad or my
00:01:33
older brother, whatever it might be, with this computer kind of
00:01:36
opened my eyes to the world of technology.
00:01:38
You know, what would that be for you?
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Speaker 2: So I think everything started, you know, in the
00:01:45
military service.
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I served in the Israeli military, in the IDF.
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I was in the 8200th unit, if you're familiar with it, which
00:01:55
is the technology intelligence unit.
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That's where everything started for me.
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Then I went to the Technion to have my degree, which is
00:02:06
equivalent to MIT, to do the comparison, and so that's where
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everything started for me.
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Wow, yes.
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Speaker 1: So was there any interesting projects or things
00:02:26
that you could, you know, kind of discuss a little bit like in
00:02:29
loose details, right?
00:02:31
That you did when you were, you know, in the IDF group.
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I've had a lot of you guys on and it's always interesting to
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just hear the specialties and like how broad the specialties
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are right, Because Israel is known for having top-tier
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cybersecurity talent within the military component and whatnot.
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It's always fascinating to me.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so first, we're talking about over 25 years ago
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, so it's a long time ago.
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But in the IDF regardless by the way, which guns, by the way
00:03:05
which you are you are there to be independent.
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So you are starting to getting mature much faster than I think
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anywhere else, because you get a lot of responsibilities again,
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whether you're in the field with guns or whether in the back
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office with the technology.
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So I think that's a great advantage for Israeli, even
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though it's a mandatory service for everyone.
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But it also gives you life experience very early.
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So I think and it's well discussed in many places about
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why Israel is a startup nation, so a big part of it is the idea.
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So the idea.
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I cannot really talk about what I did there, but you can
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understand that we're talking about cyber projects that get
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your experience.
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Again, we're talking about almost 25 years ago.
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It only changes all the time, but, uh, um, the same thing that
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you know.
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Give me a really, really big push, uh, in this field yeah,
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it's fascinating.
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Speaker 1: You know, man, I, I was, I was with a friend over
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this weekend, right, and uh, they, they had their like seven
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or eight year old there we were watching a football game and you
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know, we we brought up like, oh , that was 20 years ago, right,
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and it kind of felt like, kind of felt like yesterday.
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Honestly, like I, I remember I remember that time frame like
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very well, it was a lot of fun for me and you know, we were
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talking about it.
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You know it was like in 2005, right, we were talking about
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like this thing that happened 20 years ago and their kid was
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like wait a minute, that's 20 years ago.
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And we're like, wait, what, what don't say that.
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And then, two, you know that that's like crazy, that we're
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like, you know, thinking about this memory, right, that we
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experienced 20 years ago and it's still so fresh in our minds
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and whatnot.
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Yeah, it's interesting how that kind of could translate, you
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know, potentially to like technology, right, because, like
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the things 20 years ago, you typically think that those are,
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like, you know, dead pieces of malware, right, or dead pieces
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of technology just overall, but some of that stuff, some of that
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stuff, surprisingly, is still around, right.
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I mean, is that true?
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Maybe I'm wrong.
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Maybe they tweak it so much that it's no longer the same
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thing.
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What's your opinion on that?
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Speaker 2: So that really depends.
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You know what kind of technology I mean.
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You see today that you know technology evolved really fast
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on one end or the other and some things are still traditional.
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So that really depends.
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You know, talking about maybe traditional areas where
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technology you know improves a little bit slower, especially in
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the military, medical stuff like that, more conservative
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domains, I think they are getting even faster today.
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So everything gets really fast.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's very true.
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I mean, like today, you know, for instance, we have the Apple
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event, right, and, like you know , I'm sure that new chip is
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going to be 10 times, 15 times faster than the one I have in my
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laptop right now, which was like their first gen Apple
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Silicon.
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You know, yeah, it's fascinating even to see.
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You know, I'm on the technical side of it, right, so it's
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fascinating when I see, like these software, you know,
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manufacturers, or even hardware manufacturers, and they have,
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you know, the capability to still have that old piece of
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software running on their machine, it like intrigues me a
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little bit.
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It's like, man, like how did they think this through to have,
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like these, you know, these plugins by default and these
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languages and what not, like pulled in libraries and whatnot.
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It's, it's fascinating, right, but we don't have to go down
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that rabbit hole, right, like we'll, we'll talk about that
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forever.
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When you were, when you were getting out of the IDF, you was
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that like, did you have trouble finding your next thing?
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And I ask that because, in America, when I talk to these
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guys from the NSA and from the CIA and whatnot, they can't talk
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about what they did for like five to seven years right.
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So they have to like fabricate their experience, they have to
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fabricate their history right and hopefully find a job and if
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they make it past like that seven year mark, you know like
00:07:53
they're able to like kind of open the door into like oh yeah,
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I was a spy, or oh yeah, I hacked, you know, for the NSA
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and things like that.
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Is that the same kind of, I guess, mentality in Israel, or
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is it different?
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Speaker 2: So back these days it was very clear for me that you
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know, after I finished the military service, I go to the
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tech union to get my degree.
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I think that it's a little bit different today, because it's
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getting really hard to get to those units today and if you're
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good at what you are doing, you don't need to have any degree.
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You can just find a job and since companies in Israel are
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full of employees that went out from these units, you can
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discuss a little bit about what you did and you can go directly
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from the military service to work without even having a
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rebound.
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You know, 25 years ago this, I'm not having it again.
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I think that for me, gave me a more mature academic background
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for what I'm doing today.
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And I think you know there's an increasing demand for software
00:09:05
engineering all over the world, especially in Israel.
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You can see, even I know, that big companies, even Google,
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facebook, apple that have big offices in Israel, they have a
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list of many open jobs for a long time.
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So it's not about software engineers today and this is why
00:09:29
you know employees, many of them are jumping directly from the
00:09:33
IDF.
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They can't enforce to direct employment with those giant or
00:09:38
other sort of means.
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So that's the difference.
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It's getting a little bit different than it used to be huh
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, yeah, that is.
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Speaker 1: I mean I'm sure that, like all of those big tech
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companies, would you know, market their services, their
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opportunities in Israel.
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Just it being such a such a plethora, right of good
00:10:07
experience, right, high skill sets and, like you said, like
00:10:12
the 8200 group, it's becoming more and more difficult to get
00:10:16
into it.
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Right, like that is maybe the most elusive thing.
00:10:21
Right, like the same thing in the States here.
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Right, like with the NSAsa, the cia, like if you say that you
00:10:27
were a hacker for the nsa, I mean people will, will fire
00:10:31
their entire red team for you.
00:10:33
Like they'll, literally, they'll just give you whatever
00:10:37
you want.
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It's like, oh yeah, I don't like working with this guy.
00:10:40
Okay, he's fired by the end of the day.
00:10:41
What else?
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Speaker 2: Again, the industry in Israel is not only subsidiary
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of Ford.
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There's a big variety of software companies, especially
00:10:52
software companies, also other companies in Israel.
00:10:54
It's important, yet not the biggest domain in Israel.
00:11:03
Speaker 1: So why do you think that that is right you kind of
00:11:07
touched on it a little bit before where, when you're in the
00:11:10
military or in that group, you get the opportunity to kind of
00:11:13
decide your own work right mentality, where you're able to
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identify a gap right that that you may have with the current
00:11:29
tool set or whatever that it might be that you're using right
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, and so then you start creating something from scratch.
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And it's that experience that kind of builds upon itself,
00:11:36
because you have to view things from like a very much a reverse
00:11:39
engineering mindset, right.
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I'll give you an example.
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I have a good friend of mine that was a cyber warfare officer
00:11:47
for the Navy, right, he doesn't talk about it publicly or
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anything like that.
00:11:51
But I asked him like, finally it took me like weeks to get out
00:11:56
of him what he actually did, you know and he said, yeah, like
00:12:02
I created the proprietary sim and edr solution for the navy.
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And I said what do you mean by create?
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Like there's crowd strike out there, like why would you create
00:12:14
something that's already been created?
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Right, like it doesn't make sense to me.
00:12:17
And he, he literally explained it like yeah, they give you no
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budget and they give you a task create this thing, and if you
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don't, you're going to be off the team, like that's plain and
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simple, right.
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And so this guy you know we're evaluating like a CSPM solution,
00:12:33
and he's, he's sitting here in the background, he's like I
00:12:36
could create it for you know this amount of money and this,
00:12:39
and that, hey man, we're not in the military anymore Like we're.
00:12:51
We're not in the military anymore Like we're.
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We're.
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We're buying a solution.
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We're not creating, you know, some like brand new solution
00:12:54
that only you know about opens us up to a lot of risk.
00:12:55
Is it?
00:12:56
Is it that mentality of like reverse engineering that you
00:12:57
know, you think like pays dividends in other areas of
00:12:58
technology and whatnot?
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Speaker 2: So let's say it's 200 units so, for example.
00:13:03
So if you try to compare it to a standard company, the way they
00:13:08
are working, so we have commanders that you can compare
00:13:11
it to your boss, so it's very similar.
00:13:15
It's more civilian than other units in the military.
00:13:18
On some domains, you need to be very creative.
00:13:24
On some domains, you need to be very creative.
00:13:27
On the others, you have long-term projects that you're
00:13:29
working on.
00:13:29
It can be a few years, with many people working on them, and
00:13:33
you have a very clear schedule of what you're going to do.
00:13:36
So it really depends on what you're doing.
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Again, this is the biggest thing with the idea.
00:13:43
So that really depends on what you are expected to do.
00:13:48
You can be either creative or the project.
00:13:50
Either way it's very interesting.
00:13:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:13:55
So when you got out of your school right, the MIT of Israel
00:14:01
and whatnot where'd you go from there?
00:14:03
Where'd you find yourself?
00:14:05
Speaker 2: So I worked for the Tech Union.
00:14:08
I was like one of the professors in computer and
00:14:13
graphics actually.
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So I think I was one of the first professors in the world
00:14:20
that touched programmable GPUs, and we did it for research.
00:14:25
And then I started my first job in this domain.
00:14:30
I worked here for two years.
00:14:32
I joined a startup right after the founders raised money.
00:14:39
My first job was an R&D manager of a very small startup that
00:14:44
did very sophisticated things with computer graphics on mobile
00:14:49
phones.
00:14:51
Back these days it was, I think, six, seven, something like that
00:15:00
no iPhones, no Android phones.
00:15:05
Iphone was not launched yet.
00:15:07
We worked on similar devices.
00:15:09
You mentioned it before.
00:15:11
Like an ancient history.
00:15:13
It was only, I mean, 16 years ago, something like that.
00:15:17
30 years ago we didn't have any iPhones or Android devices.
00:15:23
So I worked then and then, with a friend of mine, we had an
00:15:31
idea.
00:15:31
Smartphones sort of became a thing, and if you remember
00:15:35
smartphones for example, symbian , if you remember by Nokia they
00:15:41
were very complicated for users.
00:15:44
I mean, if you want to set up your email, if you were not tech
00:15:53
savvy you couldn't do it and smart home started to become
00:15:56
more and more popular.
00:15:56
Again, that's only the beginning of iPhones and Android
00:15:59
and we had an idea that those users needed some help from the
00:16:04
support center.
00:16:04
So why wouldn't we give them some help or the call center
00:16:11
help by remote controlling those smartphones?
00:16:13
So the customer is calling the call center and the agent is
00:16:21
able to remote control his smartphone and do the job for it
00:16:25
.
00:16:25
So we did that.
00:16:26
We founded our own company and raised money and went to some of
00:16:34
the call centers in the world in Israel, in India.
00:16:37
We also had a pilot with AT&T in USA and I was in this company
00:16:44
until three years ago.
00:16:47
But this company did some pivot during that time.
00:16:51
So it started to offer some management solutions for
00:16:57
enterprises like MDMs and eventually this company
00:17:02
completely pivoted.
00:17:04
What the company is doing and did a secure operating system
00:17:11
for enterprises.
00:17:12
But the focus was about, I would say, connecting devices
00:17:20
and equipment that needs secure communication.
00:17:23
I'll give you an example.
00:17:24
So let's say you have a pacemaker and you get you know
00:17:30
in the operating room.
00:17:31
This pacemaker is coming with a smartphone today.
00:17:33
So the pacemaker is implanted and it is connecting via the
00:17:42
smartphone to the manufacturer facilities.
00:17:46
So originally those manufacturers they used
00:17:53
off-the-shelf devices like Samsung.
00:17:54
There are some that are still using.
00:17:58
The idea was to curate the devices.
00:17:59
That is dedicated for this mission.
00:18:01
So we need to be secure, we need to be managed in a way that
00:18:04
you know we have a fleet of devices, so we need to be secure
00:18:05
.
00:18:05
We need to be managed in a way that you know we have a fleet of
00:18:07
devices and you need to have, like, a long-lived supply chain,
00:18:09
because you know consumer devices, they're manufactured
00:18:13
and then after a year, you know, no one is manufacturing them In
00:18:16
the medical industry, thinking about pacemakers and insulin
00:18:20
injectors.
00:18:20
They're long-lived and they, you know, proceed to approve
00:18:25
them via the FDA.
00:18:27
So this is what this company is doing.
00:18:29
It's actually still doing it today With AT&T, by the way, for
00:18:33
some of their end customers, but for me it was, you know,
00:18:40
after so many years there.
00:18:42
And then we had the idea, you know, we want to make a real
00:18:47
private, secure phone for the end users, not for enterprises
00:18:52
or governments, which is what we did in my previous company, and
00:18:57
I think the focus is not only privacy and security but also
00:19:02
making everything convenient, because what we discovered, you
00:19:08
know, in my old company, is that when you know, you know users
00:19:17
were interested in a product, but you need to be very have
00:19:20
very technical understanding of how to operate a device that
00:19:22
doesn't have the convenience of a normal smartphone.
00:19:25
And then we decided to found Unplugged.
00:19:31
So Unplugged was like a certain evolution of what I did before.
00:19:36
I gained all my experience with both hardware and software from
00:19:42
my old company and, besides that, I know there were a few
00:19:45
attempts to do such a smartphone experience with both hardware
00:19:47
and software from my old company , and we decided to do.
00:19:48
You know, I know there were a few attempts to do such a
00:19:50
smartphone and we tried to analyze, you know what, why
00:19:53
those companies didn't make it.
00:19:54
I mean, there's clearly a demand for some products, but
00:19:59
they were not very successful.
00:20:00
So when we tried to analyze and understand you know, do we need
00:20:04
to found this company?
00:20:06
We understand that several things were changed in the last
00:20:08
few years.
00:20:09
The first thing is that privacy matters for many users much
00:20:16
more than before, because they are realizing how their data is
00:20:22
collected, shared, monetized, and there's a lot of awareness
00:20:27
for such products.
00:20:29
Another thing is that, unlike five, six, seven or ten years
00:20:37
ago, for a small company it was nearly impossible to create a
00:20:44
good hardware because the supply chain was very different.
00:20:48
All the big manufacturers controlled the hardware.
00:20:51
They had access to the high-end hardware which small companies
00:20:56
cannot even finance.
00:20:58
But today small companies can build their own smartphone from
00:21:05
scratch.
00:21:05
I mean, you still need some funds to do it, but it is
00:21:08
possible.
00:21:09
And if you notice today you know if you have your latest
00:21:14
iPhone or Samsung device, you want to convert to the new
00:21:19
version of the hardware.
00:21:21
There's not much of a difference between every year.
00:21:24
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:21:25
Speaker 2: I mean like almost nothing, yeah, version of Diablo
00:21:27
.
00:21:27
Speaker 1: There's not much of a difference between every year.
00:21:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean like almost nothing.
00:21:29
Yeah, it's more on paper than simply you can notice.
00:21:30
I mean the software is almost everything.
00:21:33
So, yes, you can maybe get a slightly better camera or a
00:21:36
faster CPU that no one will notice, except if you're a hard
00:21:41
gamer or trying to do something that you don't need to do on
00:21:44
your smartphone from a CPU perspective.
00:21:47
So that gives the opportunity to do it.
00:21:50
But the third reason I think that all previous attempts were
00:21:53
failing is because the user experience was not good.
00:21:56
And basically, creating a privacy phone means that you
00:22:04
must not have Google on your device.
00:22:05
It's a difficult device and that is very inconvenient.
00:22:11
Yes, so even for those users that want to understand the
00:22:18
importance of privacy, having such a phone is very
00:22:22
inconvenient and if you see the pure extent, it's not a usable
00:22:27
device.
00:22:27
So we realized that our mission is to create not only a privacy
00:22:32
in a private and secure phone, it's to create a convenient
00:22:37
somewhere that no other user can use.
00:22:40
During this path we also realized you know it was obvious
00:22:43
for us that the USA market is the biggest market for such
00:22:47
devices.
00:22:48
We're going to launch it on international territories later.
00:22:54
We realized that you know we need to do something really good
00:23:01
here.
00:23:01
So in USA what you see is that you know most users are most
00:23:06
customer consumers are buying their phones from carriers and
00:23:11
even that transition from buying a device from carrier to the
00:23:14
open market is a challenge in USA.
00:23:16
You know everyone in the world not everyone else, but most
00:23:19
places in the world take Europe, for example you can see a big
00:23:24
part of the market is buying from the open market.
00:23:28
I mean not from the carry.
00:23:29
We just realized that you know many consumers don't even know
00:23:34
what a SIM card is.
00:23:35
So realizing that that's a big challenge for us and this is
00:23:40
what we're trying to achieve creating a convenient phone,
00:23:45
secured phone, private phone and focusing on the support and
00:23:55
doing the transition.
00:23:56
Speaker 1: So let's talk about that a little bit.
00:23:58
Right, let's dive into this.
00:24:00
You know, when I was getting my master's in cybersecurity and
00:24:01
one of the courses was mobile security, right, and we were
00:24:03
really comparing, I was getting my master's in cybersecurity and
00:24:04
one of the courses was mobile security, right, and we were
00:24:06
really comparing the architecture of Android to
00:24:09
iPhones and this was back in 2018, you know.
00:24:12
So I'm sure it has changed some at this point.
00:24:16
Probably, honestly, it's probably more on the Android
00:24:19
side than the iPhone side, right , because iPhone focused more
00:24:23
specifically on, like, supply chain security to some extent,
00:24:26
right, having their own chips in it and whatnot.
00:24:28
But a part of this course was to actually, you know, find a
00:24:33
vulnerability.
00:24:34
It could be already known, could be whatever.
00:24:37
It is right, find a vulnerability, exploit it on the
00:24:40
device of your choosing, and so I wanted to make this a little
00:24:43
bit difficult, right, I want to make it a little bit challenging
00:24:46
and I wanted to find a vulnerability, you know, with
00:24:49
Bluetooth on an iPhone.
00:24:51
Right, found the vulnerability, tried to exploit it.
00:24:53
I spent 36 hours trying to exploit it, something that was
00:24:57
never going to work because, basically, apple did a silent
00:25:01
security update, literally two weeks before I started trying
00:25:05
this thing, and it was literally for this Bluetooth exploit.
00:25:08
I go and I attempted on Android .
00:25:11
Within you know, maybe 15, 20 minutes, I have root on the
00:25:15
device and I'm able to control everything about the device,
00:25:18
right, like that was.
00:25:20
That was a huge difference to me.
00:25:22
That was a huge eye opening.
00:25:23
You know, kind of event, right, maybe, and I'm a terrible
00:25:28
hacker, I mean, like, I don't even claim to be a hacker, like
00:25:32
you know, if anyone were to approach me at, like, def CON or
00:25:35
something like that, right, like I am not doing capture the
00:25:38
flag events or anything like that, like you know, I'll go
00:25:41
watch, right, but I, I'm not, I'm not over here trying to hack
00:25:44
stuff.
00:25:44
But that that experience, though, even knowing, you know,
00:25:49
having that self-awareness, like hey, I'm not good at this, this
00:25:51
isn't like my forte in security for it to be that easy with
00:25:56
android it kind of swayed me more heavily even towards iphone
00:26:01
.
00:26:01
And the reason why I went from Android to iPhone, you know,
00:26:05
probably 10 years before that, right, what was?
00:26:08
Because of the ease of use, right, I had a very bad
00:26:11
experience with Android.
00:26:12
I was downloading things from the Google Play Store that had
00:26:16
malware on it.
00:26:17
It had millions of downloads, right, like the Facebook app.
00:26:20
You know, the Facebook app had millions of downloads, or
00:26:22
whatever it was when I had an Android.
00:26:23
I'm downloading the Facebook app.
00:26:24
You know, the Facebook app had millions of downloads, or
00:26:24
whatever it was, when I had an Android.
00:26:25
I'm downloading the Facebook app and it has malware in it, right
00:26:29
, and this malware is like impacting my device pretty
00:26:32
significantly, like the performance is insanely
00:26:35
decreased.
00:26:36
You know everything about it, right, and so I, with that
00:26:40
experience and I even talked to like Android support at the time
00:26:45
and said how the hell is this happening?
00:26:47
This has happened three times to me.
00:26:49
I'm literally going to your own Play Store and downloading it
00:26:53
this is even before me getting into cybersecurity and they're
00:26:56
saying well, you're downloading it.
00:26:57
It has malware in it, yeah, and there's no way to tell, and I'm
00:27:01
sitting here, like Google, it's your Play Store.
00:27:04
You don't have a way of telling if it has malware in it.
00:27:10
Speaker 2: So you touched so many interesting points.
00:27:13
I try to remember what you were talking about, but let's start
00:27:17
with that.
00:27:18
So you're talking about maybe 10 years ago, right?
00:27:20
So back these days, apple was very close.
00:27:24
You could not do much on the iPhone as a developer.
00:27:29
On the other hand, google had everything open.
00:27:33
I mean like almost everything, and that not only means from a
00:27:37
developer perspective what you can do on the phone, all the
00:27:40
APIs, but also in terms of the Google Play Store.
00:27:45
You can upload an application to your store.
00:27:48
No one will even verify that.
00:27:50
No one will look at it on the app.
00:27:53
They're not even automatic scanning of the apps.
00:27:58
Permission usage was if you could use it, then you could
00:28:03
upload it to the store.
00:28:07
Both Google and Apple did some changes.
00:28:09
So Apple became a little bit more open.
00:28:13
They gave the developers more options.
00:28:14
On one hand, google started becoming more secure in their
00:28:18
place let's talk about Android itself in a second.
00:28:21
But today it's harder to upload an application to Google.
00:28:25
There is some verification process for you as a developer
00:28:31
for your app.
00:28:33
They restricted a lot of things that you can do with your
00:28:36
applications.
00:28:36
Permissions were downgraded.
00:28:39
I mean you cannot do anything that you want to do as you used
00:28:43
to be and the whole operating system is becoming more secure,
00:28:50
but again, we'll talk about it later.
00:28:55
So things are changing all the time and in the case of Google,
00:28:59
they also have the problem of the large device variety.
00:29:05
So you have so many devices out there, so many versions of the
00:29:09
operating system, and they had to do some work in order to make
00:29:16
sure that those that are out there can maintain all the
00:29:20
security updates.
00:29:21
And they did a good job there to be better and give the
00:29:26
manufacturers better support in upgrading the operating system,
00:29:33
making the upgrade easier for them.
00:29:36
We see it's not by ourselves.
00:29:38
So we launched our operating system based on Android 13.
00:29:42
We are updating to Android 14 this year.
00:29:47
The process is not very hard for us, even though we did many
00:29:53
changes in the operating system based on Android system for more
00:29:56
security and for our needs, and it looks much better Now, if
00:30:03
we're talking about the Android operating system, android used
00:30:06
to be very light back these days .
00:30:10
You know we are device manufacturers, so we are in
00:30:14
charge of the operating system.
00:30:16
I see the Android source.
00:30:19
Actually, anyone can see the AOSP tree.
00:30:22
We see the old BSP tree, including the drivers and
00:30:26
everything and that is becoming a huge piece of code, and most
00:30:34
of the changes are related to security, and more and more
00:30:40
layers are added to prevent, to make the operating system more
00:30:44
secure, what is exposed to other apps, for example, something
00:30:50
that used to be very open, even a few years ago, now much more
00:30:54
close Stuff like that.
00:31:00
That permission mechanism was evolved.
00:31:01
What person is giving to built-in applications on the
00:31:04
phone?
00:31:05
So Android has become like a huge monster and many code
00:31:15
changes are made in the Android operating system to support this
00:31:17
agenda.
00:31:17
Having said that, the more code you add, the more
00:31:20
vulnerabilities that you can potentially enter the operating
00:31:22
system.
00:31:22
That actually brings a different topic, because we
00:31:26
discussed about iOS versus Android.
00:31:28
So iOS is a closed source and Android is not, and many
00:31:32
vulnerabilities are discovered because it's an open source on
00:31:36
one hand.
00:31:36
On the other hand, apple closed source policy prevents someone
00:31:41
from you know, take a look in the source code and find
00:31:43
vulnerabilities.
00:31:44
So I assume that potentially more vulnerabilities exist on
00:31:49
Apple, even though probably they are much harder to be found.
00:31:55
Speaker 1: That's interesting.
00:31:56
Yeah, that is fascinating.
00:32:00
You know, the last time I looked at like the device
00:32:04
architecture of iPhone versus Android, right, just kind of an
00:32:08
overarching architecture, you know, it seemed like the iPhone
00:32:13
kind of protects the user from the user, right, like they have
00:32:17
sandboxes for their apps, they have sandbox for their user
00:32:21
space, they have it separated from the operating system, even,
00:32:25
right, and there's very specific like keys that you have
00:32:28
to use to unlock each of those components and whatnot.
00:32:32
And you know, even, like if you were going to, you know, take
00:32:36
it, take your iPhone right to an Apple dev and say, you know,
00:32:40
open a terminal and troubleshoot this thing, like they would
00:32:42
have to have a very specific key with a very specific you know
00:32:46
cable that's plugged into it, probably within the geofence of
00:32:51
you know Apple campus and whatnot, right, all of those
00:32:56
things have to line up for them to be able to do that, which I
00:32:58
mean, at least from my opinion, right, like I haven't seen it
00:33:01
from your side, where potentially you're actually
00:33:03
actively thinking of new ways to exploit devices.
00:33:06
Right, because I mean, that's probably how you, you know,
00:33:10
built unplugged to some extent, right, like it's like, well,
00:33:13
what's what's available right now to exploit devices and
00:33:16
what's coming in the future to exploit devices.
00:33:18
I don't know it from that angle , but at least from my angle, it
00:33:21
seems like, okay, iphone gets me, you know, 85, 90% of the way
00:33:26
there in terms of security.
00:33:28
So I'm going to go with that right.
00:33:29
And then I heard about the unplugged device, which was very
00:33:33
tempting to me.
00:33:34
Right, because I don't know if you've listened to the podcast
00:33:38
very much, but right before Russia invaded Ukraine, right On
00:33:44
the podcast I was calling out Russia, right when everyone else
00:33:48
was saying, oh, it's a war exercise or whatever it is.
00:33:52
You know, it's like, hey, they have tanks on the border for a
00:33:56
reason, like they're not just amassing to amass and they're
00:33:58
not doing this war exercise directly on the border for no
00:34:03
reason.
00:34:03
You know, I was actively calling them out and I do the
00:34:06
same thing with China and whatnot.
00:34:07
And it was interesting, literally the day that Russia
00:34:12
invaded Ukraine, my podcast got blackholed or blacklisted in all
00:34:17
of Russia, china, Iran, basically all enemies of America
00:34:20
and Israel, they all just blacklisted my podcast
00:34:24
immediately.
00:34:24
Oh, it wasn't a substantial portion of my traffic, but it
00:34:27
was enough for me to be like I used to get 15% from Russia and
00:34:31
now I get nothing, you know.
00:34:33
So it's like okay, you know so it's like okay, you know, that's
00:34:34
.
00:34:34
That's a substantial difference .
00:34:38
And very, I guess, very interestingly, right at the same
00:34:43
time I started getting very, very odd attacks, you know, on
00:34:47
my, on my PCs, on basically any PC that was at home, which was
00:34:51
very interesting to me because I host a podcast.
00:34:55
Right, like, what the hell am I going to do?
00:34:57
How am I even, like seen as like a threat to the state of
00:35:01
Russia or China or anything like that, like you're literally
00:35:03
wasting resources, even if it's an automated script that you're
00:35:07
running, you're wasting resources trying to like get at
00:35:11
me, right.
00:35:12
And so that's when I started to kind of go down this whole
00:35:15
rabbit hole of how do I secure my devices?
00:35:17
Right, like, how do I?
00:35:19
I need to have a secure device that I can, that I can use if I
00:35:23
need to, that I can ensure is forever secured and in my
00:35:27
benefit.
00:35:28
And so that's how I kind of stumbled on the unplugged device
00:35:31
.
00:35:31
So I say all of that right to kind of pivot, almost right, and
00:35:35
build a little bit of context around device.
00:35:36
So I say all of that right to kind of pivot, almost right, and
00:35:37
build a little bit of context around it.
00:35:38
So, the devices that we're currently using iPhones and
00:35:41
Androids do you think that their price would be even more
00:35:47
significant than they are today if they were not selling our
00:35:50
data?
00:35:50
Yeah, which is yeah.
00:35:53
You think it would be?
00:35:54
How much more expensive do you think it would be?
00:35:56
Like, what's the difference?
00:35:58
Speaker 2: So I think we did some math and I think the rough
00:36:03
number that Google's making on let's say, I don't know the
00:36:07
Apple's number exactly, but I guess they're similar, maybe
00:36:11
even more so we approximate I think you find some, some proof
00:36:17
or evidence for it that they make about 150 to 200 every year
00:36:23
from you just for holding a smartphone that you know
00:36:27
manufactured by apple or google so they're making 150 just from
00:36:32
me having the phone.
00:36:34
Speaker 1: Yeah Right, that's kind of like the default, that's
00:36:37
like the default usage of the phone, without really even like
00:36:41
clicking on different ads and stuff.
00:36:43
So this is not oh so are they building enough, yeah, okay.
00:36:49
So are they building in a fee when I Google a product, right,
00:36:53
like well, let's say, like over the weekend I bought like a
00:36:56
torque wrench for my car, right, when I Google torque wrenches,
00:37:00
is Google getting a fee from Apple or Apple's getting a fee
00:37:03
from Google?
00:37:04
And then when I go to Amazon from that link in Google is like
00:37:09
Apple getting another fee from Amazon Because I went to their
00:37:13
link on their phone.
00:37:14
Is that how convoluted it is.
00:37:19
Speaker 2: First, I think Google is paying Apple for being a
00:37:21
default search in their device.
00:37:23
It's one thing, but you should think about private data, not
00:37:28
only about your searches, because the search can be done
00:37:30
on a private phone, but let's think you know your location
00:37:35
date.
00:37:35
So location even not talking about your specific location, I
00:37:41
mean your location as a collective data of locations
00:37:46
that can be sold to data brokers for different purposes, so they
00:37:50
can make money from it or use it for their own product, to
00:37:53
build new products.
00:37:54
So this is one thing.
00:37:56
Let's see one of the challenges that we have.
00:37:58
For example, we are the Google show, so we don't have the
00:38:04
luxury of using Google network location services, which is a
00:38:12
location service that is built from user data, from their Wi-Fi
00:38:17
hotspots locations, for example .
00:38:19
Think about anything that you're doing on the phone that
00:38:23
is not related directly to what you're using, that everything
00:38:27
can be used for Google or Apple products and that can leverage
00:38:32
other skills.
00:38:35
So, um, I mean the number of opportunities just being on your
00:38:41
phone as a infrastructure software is, you know, infinite.
00:38:47
That's it so okay.
00:38:50
Speaker 1: So that is really fascinating and I think I have
00:38:53
like two major questions from it right, hopefully I don't forget
00:38:58
one of them From the perspective of Google getting
00:39:03
device location right.
00:39:04
So when I upgraded my iPhone, I upgraded a couple of years ago
00:39:08
iPhone 14, I typically like upgrade every four to six years,
00:39:12
you know, because kind of like what you said right, like
00:39:14
there's not like a giant performance difference.
00:39:17
I'm not going to notice it, I'm not going to feel it.
00:39:19
It's kind of timed with when they stopped supporting the
00:39:22
phone.
00:39:23
It's like, okay, I guess I have to upgrade Right, cause I'm not
00:39:26
that big of an idiot.
00:39:27
You know to where I'm going to have like a super old phone and
00:39:30
can't patch it.
00:39:31
But when you upgraded to the recent probably you know ios
00:39:36
right, it gave you the ability to it.
00:39:39
It at least gives you the feel that you're limiting.
00:39:42
How much these apps can you know , gather on you right, google
00:39:47
being a great example?
00:39:49
I mean, I'm sure someone at google is going to be pissed off
00:39:51
at me if they hear this right, right, but you know like when I
00:39:54
got, I just remember, right in the search app, it like asked
00:39:59
for my location information.
00:40:00
Denied, it went into the Nest app Nest owned by Google and
00:40:05
sorry about that.
00:40:06
Nest requested my, my location information.
00:40:10
Right, so I said yes to that because because obviously I want
00:40:13
to run a more efficient home, you know I don't want a giant
00:40:16
electricity bill.
00:40:17
Nest does that thing.
00:40:19
You know that deals directly with that.
00:40:21
I wonder if they're then leveraging that permission of
00:40:25
saying he allowed us for Nest so we're going to do the same
00:40:29
thing for, you know, google search locations and whatnot,
00:40:33
which would actually kind of make sense for what I
00:40:36
experienced recently when I went to a.
00:40:39
So I live in a blue state here in America and I mean, like
00:40:42
typically that's not even something that you like have to
00:40:45
say or like mention or anything, but it's so divisive or
00:40:48
divisive, you know, like now in the world it's like you have to
00:40:53
build that context in.
00:40:54
So I live in a blue state and when I went to a red state, I
00:40:58
was bombarded with like left material, right, left, centered,
00:41:05
left, focused material.
00:41:06
I'm completely bombarded with it to the point where, like I
00:41:10
thought something was wrong with my phone, right, I thought
00:41:14
something was wrong with my devices because it was so off
00:41:17
the wall from what I'd normally search.
00:41:19
It makes me like recalibrate, like well, how are they actually
00:41:23
getting that info right?
00:41:25
Like, are they just getting it from GPS information?
00:41:27
Because, like that's such a loaded topic, it's such a loaded
00:41:32
you know loaded thing to dive into In your opinion, in your
00:41:38
own research, because you're basically the expert in the
00:41:41
field.
00:41:41
Is that what they're doing?
00:41:43
Are they kind of leveraging that access in one area to be
00:41:46
like, well, it's a Google company, we're going to do it
00:41:49
over here too.
00:41:51
Speaker 2: First, specifically for the Nest, I'm not sure I
00:41:55
need to read their.
00:41:56
You know terms and conditions, but you know, think about, let's
00:42:00
say, you don't want to share your information, your location
00:42:04
data, your inaccurate location, can still be accessed through
00:42:10
several methods.
00:42:10
For example, you know, if you know the Wi-Fi MAC address that
00:42:15
you're connecting to, they can get to your almost exact
00:42:19
location, I mean as an app developer, for example.
00:42:22
So that may be or may not be blocked in a specific app, but
00:42:27
certain apps can access it.
00:42:28
But I think I have a good example and about maybe that you
00:42:34
know, I think I have a good example about maybe that will
00:42:37
give you some evidence about what those companies are trying
00:42:42
to do and how apps developers or , let's say, those data brokers,
00:42:47
are bypassing.
00:42:48
So I want to talk about the Advertising ID.
00:42:53
You know it was a few years ago .
00:42:56
Everyone had it.
00:42:56
It was Apple, google.
00:43:01
Apple blocked it.
00:43:02
You know, blocked the data from Facebook.
00:43:05
Google even, you know, decided that.
00:43:07
You know it would not be mandatory.
00:43:09
You can even disable it.
00:43:11
That should be enough to cut or to stop the efficiency of the
00:43:20
add-in industry.
00:43:21
So, add-in industry are you familiar with the add-in
00:43:24
industry?
00:43:24
Maybe I'll explain.
00:43:27
So the add-in industry is a cybersecurity hacking domain
00:43:34
that allows a very effective, cost-effective, actually
00:43:40
targeting, profiling and getting information about people.
00:43:44
So the idea is that, let's say, I want to know your location.
00:43:48
All I need to do is to do some advertisement campaign that
00:43:54
targets your profile.
00:43:56
I know your age or, I would say , approximate location I mean
00:44:00
which city you are, what is your interest and then I send some
00:44:06
advertisement data to contain your location and then I use
00:44:13
this information that I gathered from this campaign to know your
00:44:17
specific location, for example.
00:44:18
Let's say, for example, I get like 1 hits that you know
00:44:26
this campaign was.
00:44:26
You know 1 people that this campaign hits in your city.
00:44:32
I know where you're living.
00:44:33
I know where you're working.
00:44:34
I see only one person with those two locations.
00:44:35
I know where you're living.
00:44:35
I know where you're working.
00:44:35
I see only one person with those two locations.
00:44:38
I know it was you.
00:44:39
They can trace back all your locations.
00:44:43
So, given that you don't have this head ID, this industry
00:44:50
should now be blocked.
00:44:51
But that's not the case because I can still profile you from
00:44:56
other data on your device.
00:44:57
So if I know, you're not even need to know.
00:45:02
I need to get your device model , some other characteristics of
00:45:06
your phone, a few that those ads can get, like mobile carrier
00:45:12
and some other parameters.
00:45:14
I can narrow down those parameters like 9, 10, 11
00:45:19
parameters and gather all of them together to give an ID,
00:45:27
like a fake ID, to your device.
00:45:30
So, even though Google and Apple are trying to blow up and
00:45:37
give more secure products in, essentially you know there is
00:45:42
some okay, because you know eventually it will not allow all
00:45:48
the apps to the way they should .
00:45:50
So the into the apps have access to the system, to the
00:45:54
data on your phone.
00:45:54
You're onto the application tool.
00:45:56
So, yes, they're doing a lot in this area, but that is not
00:46:02
enough, especially for those attackers that you know will
00:46:06
find any way again, even without hacking your phone, to get
00:46:10
information about.
00:46:12
Speaker 1: That's really.
00:46:12
It's interesting.
00:46:14
You know, I feel like people always had the mentality it's
00:46:19
maybe a legacy mentality, right when they have to, like, hack
00:46:24
your actual device in order to, you know, gain information or
00:46:27
track you or whatnot.
00:46:28
It seems like they don't even have to hack your device anymore
00:46:31
.
00:46:31
They just have to pay a data broker to get whatever they want
00:46:36
.
00:46:36
Right, I mean like, and with I mean I I guess with, from what
00:46:41
you were saying.
00:46:42
With iphones, with androids, you know, it's basically impossible
00:46:47
to to block that stuff.
00:46:50
Right, because it's almost like apple gives you the illusion of
00:46:54
privacy and I I mean please correct me if I'm wrong Right,
00:46:58
but it seems like they do a bit of a better job than Google
00:47:01
overall, right, if we're not, if we're not thinking of this, you
00:47:04
know, data broker side of it, right, it seems like they do a
00:47:08
good job overall of protecting their users from themselves,
00:47:12
protecting their devices.
00:47:13
You know, ensuring privacy, to some extent, it seems like they
00:47:16
do a good job of it, but you know, it's like it's difficult
00:47:22
because it turns into a situation where one you know,
00:47:27
I'm I'm a security person, I'm more aware of it than you know
00:47:30
98, 99% of the population.
00:47:32
How in the world is you know someone of the population?
00:47:34
How in the world is you know someone like my parents, you
00:47:38
know, in their, in their 50s, 60s, right, they're never going
00:47:42
to know the difference, they're never going to think about that
00:47:44
or anything like that, and so you need a device that's doing
00:47:46
it, you know, automatically.
00:47:48
Because if, like you said, if apple were to actually make that
00:47:52
change on their device, like 95 , 99 of the apps on their device
00:47:57
wouldn't even work, apple would have to go into the business of
00:48:00
recreating all these apps you know themselves to make it work
00:48:04
on their device yeah, actually it's.
00:48:07
Speaker 2: it's opposed to their business model.
00:48:09
It's just opposed to the business model and you, you know
00:48:13
, we created in the app phone.
00:48:15
One of the biggest things that we put on the phone is a
00:48:19
firewall that blocks trackers and ads, not only in the web
00:48:25
browser, also in the apps.
00:48:27
So, you know, trackers most of the apps have trackers.
00:48:33
Some of them are, you know, legit, like from the developers
00:48:38
to collect some data about the usage of the app.
00:48:40
Some are for just selling the data and, by the way, our new
00:48:46
antivirus version that we're going to release later this
00:48:50
month will show this information for use.
00:48:54
You can install it also on regular inverse phones.
00:48:58
This information, by the way, is public.
00:49:01
I mean, most of the users do not know how to access it.
00:49:03
They do not know that they should, you know, track those
00:49:07
trackers or even have trackers, and antivirus is not even
00:49:10
showing this data because they are failing in this area too.
00:49:13
They have some trackers by themselves.
00:49:15
So this is one thing.
00:49:16
Another thing is that, you know , regarding Apple versus Google
00:49:22
in terms of software.
00:49:24
So, when you spoke about hackers , I think so, if you know
00:49:32
Cetabright, cetabright, they are providing for government
00:49:37
agencies the ability to hack to your device.
00:49:41
So if they have a criminal's device, they can hack into the
00:49:44
device and collect data.
00:49:46
So there's a leaked document from Cellebrite of the brightest
00:49:50
about maybe five, six months ago they divided the, the
00:49:54
categories for android, iphones and uh, generally speaking, I
00:50:01
think.
00:50:01
I mean they don't have the solution for the latest iphone,
00:50:05
but you just risk three days for that.
00:50:07
From my experience, they are always have the ability to hack
00:50:14
into the and also to most Androids, and they had a very
00:50:21
nice section separated just for Graphene OS on Pixel devices and
00:50:30
it's a separated section and it's clear that Graphene OS on a
00:50:36
Pixel device is more secure than any iPhone or Android
00:50:41
device.
00:50:41
So that's very interesting for us.
00:50:45
Of course, our understanding is that Graphene OS is not
00:50:49
accessible for most of the users .
00:50:52
They cannot just do a Pixel phone and flash the device.
00:50:55
But there are ways in software, similar things that we are
00:51:01
doing, to protect you and an end user.
00:51:04
Speaker 1: So what's the OS that the unplugged device is running
00:51:08
?
00:51:08
You said that it was essentially Android 14 on the
00:51:11
back end.
00:51:12
What are you calling your branch of Android 14?
00:51:16
Speaker 2: So it's LibertOS or Libertos, so it's a variant of
00:51:22
Android.
00:51:22
It's based on a very clean version of Android.
00:51:24
We don't have any Google services.
00:51:27
We strip everything off from the operating system and then
00:51:30
build on top of the operating system.
00:51:32
You know our security and privacy, so it's a standard base
00:51:37
.
00:51:37
Speaker 1: That's really fascinating.
00:51:38
You know, I wish we had more time, but I always try to, you
00:51:42
know, stick to the time limit that I give everyone, so you
00:51:45
know before I let you go.
00:51:46
How about you tell people where they can find you if they
00:51:48
wanted to reach out and learn?
00:51:50
You know, maybe connect with you right, and where they can
00:51:54
find your unplugged device?
00:51:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, so unplugged is available at wwwunpluggedcom.
00:52:00
Just search for unplugged on any search engine.
00:52:07
You can buy the phone today in USA, canada.
00:52:10
The phone, by the way, is compatible to most networks
00:52:16
around the world.
00:52:16
We're just now selling it in USA and Canada only because of
00:52:23
certification and logistics.
00:52:24
We want to expand.
00:52:27
Actually, we're starting our European certificate right now,
00:52:30
so our next big market will be Europe and you can actually
00:52:33
reach us also in the app messenger.
00:52:36
So the app messenger is our secure messenger.
00:52:38
You can download for any android or iphone device.
00:52:43
Now we have some.
00:52:44
We have a group there, like we call the early adopters group,
00:52:48
and some of us, including me, are in this group.
00:52:51
So you can reach us there.
00:52:52
And we have live agent support.
00:52:57
That you know from our apps and also from the phone.
00:53:01
You can reach our support and, you know, ask questions.
00:53:03
We have a lot of information on our website.
00:53:06
We'll try to bring more and more information there.
00:53:09
The more we ask, the more we put.
00:53:11
But again, the FAQs section is quite big already, so you can
00:53:20
find.
00:53:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect.
00:53:22
You know, ron, like I really appreciate you know you coming
00:53:27
on the podcast.
00:53:27
This is a really fascinating conversation.
00:53:30
I definitely want to have you back on in the future to kind of
00:53:32
continue our conversation even and do a part two it was great.
00:53:36
Yeah, yeah, it was fantastic.
00:53:38
I really appreciate it.
00:53:40
So you know, thanks for coming on, of course, and I hope
00:53:43
everyone listening or watching enjoyed this episode.
00:53:45
Bye, everyone, bye.
00:53:47
Thank you very much, thanks.
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