In this episode I talk with the shows former co-host Derrick Jackson. We talk about everything in this episode so its hard to narrow it down. If you enjoy the podcast please go leave a review on the platform you listen, like it & share the podcast. You can also follow the podcast on social media at the links below.
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00:00.00
Joe
So what's up man 1 year basically 1 year to the day since we started this podcast. Yeah right I'm surprised it lasted a year honestly, it was hard man. It's ah it's a lot harder than people.
00:09.92
Derrick
That's amazing.
00:19.50
Derrick
Yeah, you have to figure out how to change things up so that you can keep doing it right? because things come up like they always do and if you realize that.
00:19.67
Joe
People realize.
00:27.77
Joe
Yeah.
00:34.75
Derrick
You know, nobody's actually putting a gun to your head and making you do it then that's when you really know you know that? Okay, this is something that I how I'll fix other things in order to make sure that this can keep continuing so it's cool process.
00:36.60
Joe
Yeah.
00:46.92
Joe
Right? Yeah, it's ah it's you know it's interesting because like I mean I don't make any money off this podcast like literally zero. It cost me money every single month to put it on to make sure that the content's out there. It literally costs me money you know and it's not a lot of money of course right? like I'm not in a bad financial situation because of it. But I'm still not making anything from it and so like to me, it's like man is this really worth my time right? like that's what it turns into. And um, you know it. It was difficult at times for sure. Um I would say like it was really difficult when probably when you like you know left the show as a host because like I couldn't rely on anyone else to carry a conversation. And if I was interviewing someone that wasn't that good at interviewing. Maybe it was their first podcast or something um like all the pressure was on me. It was solely on me to carry that fucking conversation. Whether I was bored I was yawning like.
02:01.86
Derrick
The benefit.
02:02.85
Joe
You know like it's really difficult. It's actually a lot more difficult than people you know people think um and I don't script anything I literally 0 script like.
02:11.36
Derrick
Yeah.
02:19.66
Joe
Even when you wrote a script I think for the first couple episodes I didn't even follow it like I didn't even look at it I had it pulled up but I didn't look at it because I like a very like genuine you know conversation. Whatever.
02:22.97
Derrick
No.
02:33.80
Joe
And ah, that throws off a lot of people actually like because they'll be like all right? You know you want to throw me like your script or your questions or whatever and I can prepare you know correctly for them and whatnot like there is none like this is a conversation like me and you would have we were at a bar. Um, if we were at you know some restaurant or whatever if I saw you out on the street and I knew you we started talking like this is that this is that conversation. You know there's there's no difference and so learning that and figuring all of that out. Was a struggle to say to say the least and then I had ah the great idea of going from doing ah an episode a week to doing 2 episodes a week and I was like That's when I was actually about to quit I was like man like fuck this like I'm not making any money from this thing I don't know if anyone's listening I mean like you see the numbers and everything on your hosting provider but it's not the true numbers right? like.
03:32.75
Derrick
And put here.
03:46.69
Joe
Like my numbers on my host and provider are actually pretty good comparison to other podcasts with the same timef frameme and all that sort of stuff. Um, but it's not the true numbers There's like a lot of other platforms out there that are calculating. There are numbers that are not that are not in. This ah hosting platforms numbers and so like it's very misleading and so I could see like an episode that's like just performing like shit you know, just point blank performing like shit I thought I had a great conversation with the person I thought he was interesting and whatnot and it's like very discouraging. And so you know I had to take a step away and like figure out if I actually wanted to do it and then you know two weeks into no podcast I was starting to get the itch I was like oh maybe maybe this is something you know I should keep keep going with and. I think January I did 2 episodes um like by accident like by accident actually because like people reached out and I just had the time and I was like yeah sure, whatever you know Um, and February is probably another um like. 2 episode month where I did not expect to do 2 but people just reached out and like all right, you know because I don't really bank any episodes and that's something that I need to figure out you know for myself because I know that there's I've had people on this podcast I'd have podcasts. And they released a season a year and they recorded all within you know, two months and then they're not doing anything with the podcast for the rest of the year like well shit like I don't I don't know I'm not that big yet. Yeah.
05:34.00
Derrick
Yeah, and that's difficult when you're also covering news right? because you want to at least kind of keep some kind of ah up to date ability to kind of you know touch on things that's happening in real time. So.
05:38.22
Joe
Yeah, so.
05:50.50
Derrick
From your perspective or anybody who does a podcast similar maybe quarterly right? You can get away with that. Um, you know you just aggregate everything that comes up in that quarter but it would probably have to be at the end of the quarter where you release right? because that way you can capture.
06:04.54
Joe
Right.
06:08.62
Derrick
You know any of the the amazing things that happen? Um, but yeah I mean everything that you talked about is just that's that's the part of you know that's behind the scenes and whether or not you know you find what you really motivated by is it is it is it.
06:10.49
Joe
Right.
06:26.91
Derrick
About you know the podcast growing or is it about what you're actually creating right? and I think that a lot of times you know there's a thing where it's kind of like well you know we're We're always judged on our performance in some way or another.
06:32.81
Joe
E.
06:45.42
Derrick
So when we start to look at things like a podcast. We get our metrics and we start to say okay well the podcast is doing well or is not doing well based on this and actually it's irrelevant. It's absolutely irrelevant if your conversation was a good conversation and you talked about really good shit. That's all that matters.
07:01.54
Joe
So.
07:05.29
Derrick
And it doesn't really matter if nobody else hears it right? I mean the universe isn't going to line people up for you. It's not going to make you know people tune in just because it needs to satisfy a ego or you know your perspective. It's just about what you're doing. Are you doing good work.
07:16.12
Joe
Right.
07:22.90
Derrick
And and the more you put out there. You know, just over time time kind of heals all that because once you build up that catalog and you know you do all your things word of Mouth. You know you touch on the marketing. All that. It'll just grow it'll grow naturally over time right? It'll just grow like everything does. It's not artificial growth right? where it's like you got plugged by like Lebron James or some shit and then next thing you know you know all his followers areed to a cyber security podcast for some reason but you know.
07:37.71
Joe
Right.
07:54.46
Derrick
And in the space that we're in too right? It's like cybersecur again, we talked about this before It's not video gaming. It's not cryptocurrency there I mean like the biggest trending issue that may have happened in the last six months is is what in cybersecurity. Log four j is is that an exciting discussion. Are you going to Thanksgiving and you're you know, breaking it down to the getting cousins that this is amazing or this is crazy. No, it's more than likelyly. You don't want to talk about it because it's stressful.
08:15.58
Joe
Right? right? right.
08:26.20
Joe
I Mean we barely even talked about it on the podcast and it's a security podcast and.
08:31.20
Derrick
Yeah, but well we know what we know the thing is about you know it's really interesting because I like the way the podcast this is the thing that I liked about the podcast The most was is that we can get really technical and go into details and talk about controls and talk about all that. But honestly, you're you're limiting a security professional whose life right? And so the idea would be. You know? Well, How do you present yourself as a security professional but not make it so that it's tailored. Only. To people who may be you know experts in security right? It's a lot more to it than just you know talking about whether or not a firewall was misconfigured. Well, how do you? Actually you know make it so that those dealings that you have on a backend like with your your clients or your customers or your teammates. Those stories actually are what security Professionals deal with 90% of the time it isn't just going in and configuring something. It's all that mess all the meetings all the times you ping somebody in teams and they say something ridiculous. All the times you think about getting out of the whole. Feel because it's working your nerves and it's stressing you I think that is a good balance right? And so from that perspective I think is a good niche I get I think it's balanced and and the perspective that you take when you're interviewing people you're finding out how they get into security and and and their path man I think that's. I Think that's gold think it's gold.
10:02.28
Joe
Yeah I think it's really valuable. You know like I think one of the main reasons why I kept doing the podcast and I will keep doing the podcast is because um I think that it helps people you know, um, especially like I think back to. You know when I was trying to get into security and like basically you were the only one that gave me a shot to actually get a security dedicated role and just how difficult that was for me like that that day if I didn't get that job I was going to give up security I was just. I don't know I don't know what I was going to do but I wasn't going to try and go down the security path anymore because that evidently wasn't working for me, you know, two and a half years of interviews and being told no and for for dumb reasons too for really dumb reasons and um. You know what I feel like what I'm creating here is actually you know helping people get into a field that is very unwelcoming to new people extremely difficult for people to get into it for no reason. Um, and yeah I mean I try to have meaningful conversations that will help. People be more successful in their career. But I also want to like have the I want to have the content where it's like hey it's not all about your career right? like it's not about the place that you work for or the amount of money that you make or anything. What are you doing to be able to make money on your own right apart from that company right? like because I mean companies at the end of the day they have to run a business right? and you know like for instance, um, you know at my current company. we ah we had someone that's extremely smart in the abstract space. Maybe the smartest abstract person I have ever met. Um and he got let go due to a workforce reduction you know and my manager didn't want to do that right. Cso probably didn't want to do that. But at the end of the day they they had to do to workforce reduction and that shit that can happen. You know, um, and so hopefully I'm providing enough value to people where they you know view these things in the proper context. Right? Like yeah, it's it's great that you get to work from home It's great that you are making 6 figures. You know it's great that you have all this knowledge and whatnot. But what are you doing outside of that to build your own reputation to build your own um, branding because.
12:55.71
Joe
You know what I realized I realized that when you when you reach a certain point in your career where you know you know your topic or your your concept very well. Um, it's hard to market that. Right? Because you don't have a brand. You don't have a personal brand and so the thing that this podcast gives me is a personal brand if a hiring manager out there wants to take a chance on me before they even reach out. They probably go listen to this podcast and say is this guy going to fit with the team if he's not going to fit with the Team. We're not going to interview him. But you know what it cuts out a lot of the bullshit for me it cuts out a whole out of the bullshit.
13:43.21
Derrick
Yeah, because it can be risky, especially when you're open and you're true and you don't really do it to play politics you know in terms of the show. We never set out to try to say the perfect thing and.
13:48.91
Joe
Right? so.
14:00.40
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
14:02.50
Derrick
Guard ourselves from saying something that may you know be like a pie tar home face a lot of it is just you know hey here's how I felt about the situation and I thought it stopped or whatever and at some hiring managers. You know they they may not actually be a fan of that right? they may want somebody who.
14:11.10
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
14:21.84
Derrick
Would be really, you know, um, button up and able to you know, ah use so very specific language and and and all of that and you know of course you know in a professional setting. You're going to use all those tools but from the podcast right? It's like.
14:29.10
Joe
Right? right? right.
14:39.83
Derrick
But here's our opportunity to kind of speak on things truthfully and from using our own voice right? showing our personality and not necessarily having to be governed right? by all these different variables and factors. It's just let's come on here talk about some topics and. Whatever way it goes it goes and you know you you have to be comfortable in who you are to know that you know if somebody hears that and they decide not to pursue you because of that. Well it's no sweat off your back right? It's like you didn't say anything that was you know, offensive It could some things can I mean.
15:10.10
Joe
Um, yeah.
15:17.23
Derrick
There's things that offend everybody right? But ah, you could tell them not yeah you you could tell that we're not that kind of you know, ah people we're not setting out to offend people or or say anything that's going to harm people. So yeah, you're right? and and the branding aspect is very important.
15:19.42
Joe
Is is my will.
15:26.71
Joe
Right.
15:35.38
Derrick
Um, and I actually did I took down some questions that I wanted to ask you because you know like you know when I when I left the podcast from ah hosting on on a continuous basis. Um, it it to me. It was a couple of things that was going on. Obviously I started a new job. Um, and I was ah. You know, managing security and you know the position was at the point where it just for me I was really having yeah I was having some difficulties with the security space. Um, in terms of if this was something that I really wanted to continually do um.
16:00.16
Joe
It was a lot.
16:13.29
Derrick
Because to me I was losing um out on some of the things the thrills right? and I'm not gonna say thrills from the perspective of here's a incident now sit here stress all night because you need to fix it right? but it was those wins right? What were those wins and I think my perspective changed a lot because um.
16:17.86
Joe
Faith.
16:33.26
Derrick
It was difficult for me to find wins and as you know, somebody like me I change over time from being somebody who who who has wins come from what he does right? What I do personally to me is mostly about what I can help other people do right.
16:43.15
Joe
So.
16:50.89
Derrick
And I wasn't seeing those wins right? like you know whether it was trying to mentor coach people or somebody trying to pursue so different path in their in their career I wasn't I wasn't getting the kind of um, just. I wasn't getting any feedback in that right? and and and it's been a really weird year. Um like and and from the perspective of of the podcast I really wanted you to continue and that's why I tried to do everything I could from my perspective to let you know like hey. This is me right now this day is not you what are you doing continue to do that I think it's great, but from my perspective i'mma tell you right now that I'm I'm having a difficult time and being able to reach out to people and give them the kind of help that I think that they want because. Like to see people grow and 1 of the questions I have for you was as ah like you just said over the last year you know is there anything that you saw that ce submiting a perspective you had or something that was important that you now realize is even more important right? Because. Over the last year we've experienced a lot of things. So is there something that you realize is even more important like is the marketing thing even more important than you always thought it was or was it something else that you already knew but you realize that is even more important.
18:13.20
Joe
So I would say it's kind of twofold. Um because like I always kind of knew that marketing was important but I also felt that. If the podcast was good. It would just find people right? People would find it. That's not necessarily the case because if you just put shit out there like it's the internet like there's trillions of things out there for people to find what are the? What's the likelihood that they're going to find your.
18:40.73
Derrick
To.
18:48.61
Joe
Single podcast even in a field of tens of thousands of podcasts um and so you know all of last year the only quote unquote marketing that I did was on Linkedin when I posted an episode and that was it like.
19:03.68
Derrick
And what and.
19:06.69
Joe
1 time a week or whenever the episode went live and that was it um and it you know it generated some traffic of course but I didn't think it would be like as I didn't think it was as important to get on Instagram to get on Twitter. Get on these other platforms and post on there. You know regularly or at least when I do an episode as well because it opens up. You know your podcast to more audiences that would be interested. You know and just following the right people. Um that are already.
19:36.53
Derrick
Yeah.
19:43.10
Joe
Following other podcasts in the space just helps out a lot you know and then one other thing I would say is like mentorship I'm I'm reached out to constantly for people looking for security mentorship. Um. Just guidance you know with their career in general right? Um, and so that's where like the Patreon is going to come in right and I haven't talked about it before on the podcast but I'm working on putting together a patreon where people can you know. Pay for like different mentorship sessions and levels and whatnot right? and you get exclusive content. You get 1 on 1 sessions with me or another professional in the field that's in your field that you're trying to get into you know all these sorts of things right? I really want to build like a 1 ne-stop shop people that are looking to get into security that need that help and need that guidance. There's some people out there that don't need any guidance at all, right? like they could just figure it all out. But if you're like me just an average guy right? like you need a little bit of help and so um. You know I've I've identified like the importance of it not just like the importance of it like what it would have been like what what the value would have been given or added to me like my own personal life I had a mentor at that time. Um, but other people have also expressed the value that they need it for like currently present day. You know? and so yeah I mean it's it's an experiment right? like ah every month I'm trying something different every month I'm trying to bring you know different people on with different topics. Um I actually turned down some people because I didn't think that the topic would be you know, very advantageous to bring to my audience I didn't want to fall asleep on the podcast. So I decided not to bring some of that content on you know. Um, like I think taking that time off from the podcast gave me gave me the ability to take a step back and be like okay I'm only doing this if I'm interested in it if it doesn't interest me if I'm not. If I'm not like engaged in the conversation if I don't think that they're a good fit for the podcast I'm not just going to do it just to fill a slot for the week or month like I will literally go a month and not post content because like you know what? maybe the 10 people that reached out that month I didn't like any of them.
22:28.76
Joe
You know and maybe the people that I reached out to that month didn't even respond to me right? like that's a real thing that actually happens and there was several times before when I was doing you know podcasts every single week like I was. I was so stressed out just trying to find people to go on the podcast like that week or the next week or whatever you know and ah that like really, he'd say you kind of in a way you know because you want this thing to be successful and they always say with social media. To be successful for you to blow up. You got to be posting every day you got to be posting all the time it needs to be frequent needs to be consistent and this and that right so like I set the standard at 1 podcast a week and so I tried to be consistent with that while. When you're not making any money from it and you're stressed out because you know you're you're trying to find these people trying to have good conversations with people that like put you to sleep. Um, it's difficult like you know? Um, so now like. I don't care about any of that like if you're cool if you if you're in an area that I think that you would be interesting to talk to I'll have you on like I think last week I had on the guy with all the certs. Um, he has he has an absurd absurd amount of certs. Um, and and I mean we've we've talked over Linkedin for the past couple years actually um and he'll post on Linkedin like you know I have all the asserts it triple my income and everything like that and and by the way I'm not bad mouthing him like. You know I actually like the guy he's a cool guy. Um, and this isn't anything that I haven't said to him before like on Linkedin with thousands of people looking at it where you know I was just like I don't know the value ad that you're actually getting at a certain point with all these certifications. Like what's the actual value add of you getting all 12 of Aws' ' certifications I don't know if there's 12, there's some amount right? like it's it's probably it might be 12 um, but like what's the value add of you getting that right? Are you.
24:46.34
Derrick
It's close to it I'm sure. Yeah, yeah.
24:55.40
Joe
Are you going to go work at Aws because if you are it might be really helpful if not maybe not I guess that would depend on the role you know and and if you're so heavy in the Aws that like you're designing everything. Maybe that's helpful. Um, but then you know he he took it to another level and was like I'm gonna get everything that azure has I'm gonna get everything that Gcp has everything that alibaba has oracle I'm just sitting here like dude man like that's hard.
25:30.37
Derrick
Hard but as a go and yeah.
25:33.32
Joe
It It is a goal and it's a goal that you can have for sure. Um me personally I am just more calculated with how I spend my time and the reward that I'm getting from how I spend that time.
25:46.34
Derrick
Sure Yeah I mean from that you know from that perspective you know, um, lots of people. Um some people are just you know they don't want to not have something to look forward to right? and so the easiest thing for them is just say well look.
25:58.90
Joe
Right? so.
26:04.74
Derrick
This ah vendor has all he asserts so put the checkmark that then that vendor has a whole bunch of searchs. It's very easy right? And maybe it that extends out for 2 to 3 years and and from their perspective. They don't have anything to worry about but the pursuit of those goals right? whereas with other people.
26:08.70
Joe
Yeah, we yeah.
26:20.78
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
26:24.70
Derrick
We may say okay twoirts. Ah I Want to get a mortgage I Want to get some property I Want to lose £30 I Run a run a tent right? We got goes that may you know we drop things in various buckets and so for us right. We don't put everything and concentrate everything in our energy into you know one particular path but for some people that's fine, right? and and like I said for for people like him like I said you want them on your side if something goes bad and you working with that technology right.
26:53.30
Joe
Oh for sure. Well.
26:56.76
Derrick
You're like a man is a WS is acting up get that man in here got the 12 certs right? It's not a problem then it might be a problem. You know if you try to talk to him about you know for fany ah fantasy football. He might not have a clue about how he should rap for anything.
26:59.34
Joe
Right.
27:07.82
Joe
Yeah, right, There's no, there's no way he has the bandwidth to know anything like about sports you know at least in my opinion right? Like yeah.
27:15.39
Derrick
The. You draft an Aws Services give me that s three buck yeah Yeah,
27:26.91
Joe
You know to? yeah I mean it's it's it's different for everyone. You know I can't imagine what his hourly bill rate is I mean it's.
27:39.50
Derrick
Well at that rateid you got you got you got pricing power right? and so that that if if you're I Yeah yeah, so you can say whatever you want really you can justify it right? It's just to me. There's a certain. There's a number that I look for that will allow for me to say okay I can.
27:43.70
Joe
And he's in Consulting. So. Now. Okay.
27:58.89
Derrick
Focus on other things right? It isn't how much can I get. It's how much can I make so that I no longer have you give a damn about how much I'm making right because that frees up a lot of energy right? because a lot of times you sacrifice so much in order to go for a pursuit of well.
28:09.86
Joe
Um.
28:17.23
Derrick
Maybe one day I can make three hundred thousand or two hundred and fifty thousand but along that way you might end up putting your your health at risk you might end up having relationships, crash and burn because you're not hanging out with your buddies or checking in with them. You might have somebody in your family that unfortunately may pass away and you didn't talk to for years.
28:23.35
Joe
Yeah.
28:35.97
Derrick
Because you thought that you were doing some amazing thing pursuing an extra couple of bucks that wouldn't have changed anybody lives around right? and if it would have changed your life. It wouldn't have really changed it in a meaningful way. It would have just made you more of a consumer right? but did it really make you. Or put you in a position in which you were helping people ah or let's just say that when you did finally hang them up that you ruin and not have any regrets right? I don't think that people when they hang it up I don't think that they say I'm glad that I was making billions of dollars when they pass away.
29:11.31
Joe
Right? right? right.
29:13.20
Derrick
They think about all the crap that they sacrifice to make those billions of dollars and so that's why for me. Yeah, it's all about just at gaining that perspective. That's why you have to take a step back sometimes because you might realize you set up yourself for a goal because you know you just need the. Find something you can just concentrate on and block out all the other mess that's happening in your world in the world and in your life but at the same time you need to be able to look up every now and then and appreciate you know, certain things right? because I mean it can happen just like that and next thing you know you realize that damn. That whole last year or two years while I was working for this. Um, you know I lost out on some opportunities to really let people know how much I cared about him. Um, and and so that's something that I have to you know cause me because I'm the same kind of person as he is from the perspective that I'd say.
29:56.99
Joe
So yeah.
30:07.14
Derrick
Get all the Aws search that exists because I feel that I can do it in man. It's a goal right? but something has to stop me from doing that and that something now is a family I got a kid you know he I mean like damn I'm on a computer too much. He's just like me right? and it's like.
30:11.57
Joe
Right? so.
30:22.16
Joe
Um.
30:24.71
Derrick
Cheese. It's like I can't do nothing that I'm not really proud of because he's going to adopt that right? He's looking at me and set an example right? So I'm like yeah yeah, might have to get into programming because maybe he'll pick that up right? because otherwise you know it's just like.
30:30.90
Joe
Yeah.
30:43.65
Derrick
Du You got to set an example man and they watch they watch and they and they they practice everything you do? So yeah, it's about setting good examples I don't want him to sacrifice all his family and friends to pursue the most money that he possibly can.
30:57.30
Joe
Right? Yeah I mean my goal you know, like growing up. You know we were probably like lower middle class I Guess so there was no college fund right? like there was nothing. If you were going to go to College. You're taking out student loans and so I took out student loans. Um, and so like the reason why I work the way that I do that I push as hard as I do is because I got fucking bills to pay.
31:18.13
Derrick
And yeah.
31:29.86
Derrick
Have for real.
31:33.78
Joe
Like and it's not like you know it's not like ah oh he has rent or a mortgage or or whatever. It's like no like when you have student loans like you are actually fighting against time to pay it off as quickly as possible because those interest rates are so insane they're on the verge of like illegal.
31:43.74
Derrick
I hope.
31:54.20
Joe
That's how high they are and um, you know I don't want my kid to ever go through that right? like I'm I'm literally going to pay for my kid's college like I do not care what it takes and. I Mean the reason is because like I don't want my kids to ever be in a situation where they feel like they have to take a job that is going to take years off their life to pay a debt that they shouldn't have to take out right? like that's. That's the biggest thing for me like I feel like if I can pay for their college that is putting them in a totally different bracket than than I was for sure I mean I was stressed out of my mind at school not necessarily because of the classes I was taking. But because of the debt I was incurring and I just knew the number was large I didn't realize how interest plays a role into it right? like that's the thing when you grow up like poor. You don't You're you're never taught about money like never you are literally never taught about money. Um, because they don't teach it in school and your parents are too broke to understand how money actually works and so interest can either be for you or against you and you never really understand that you are trained and taught to look at the minimum payment. Can you make that minimum payment. Yes, or no. If. The answer is yes, take out the loan if the answer is no reconsider it and notice how I said reconsider Not no, you know that's just that's just the truth.. That's what it is and you know. I didn't even I mean I like I studied economics for a couple semesters in college and I still didn't fully grasp the whole like idea of interest and how it compounds and I didn't grasp like. Oh so that can work against me but I I didn't realize that that can also work for me right in things like roth Iras or the stock market is a multiplier right? like it's not interest, but it's a multiplier and um. Yeah, like I Guess the reason why I'm doing everything that I'm doing is literally to just set up my future kids into a position where they don't have to go through some of the shit that I went through now there's a caveat with that right? because.
34:40.81
Joe
I actually know some people that have kids that have paid for their college like literally just given them everything just giving them everything and they're they're not successful like they're they're really struggling to be successful because they don't know how to push themselves and they don't know what real drive is. And so am I going to pay for their school. Yes, but I'm going to do it in a way where it gives them a false sense of urgency right? It gives them a false stress because what I'll do is I'll be like. I'll pay for 50% of whatever school you get into whatever school you go to 50 you have to figure out the other 50% if I could figure out a hundred percent you can figure out 50% right? So then that's student loans regardless but what they won't know. And they burn not ever listen to this podcast what they won't know is that I'm going to be saving that other 50% and probably investing it and when they get out of school when they're you know, find a job and everything right I would be like oh here's the other 50% and just pay off that loan.
35:36.83
Derrick
Ah.
35:55.26
Joe
You know, but because you need to be able to instill that struggle right? like they need to realize what it fucking takes to actually be somewhere in life. Those billionaires those billionaires are billionaires not because they got lucky. Not because they were born into it like there's ah, a handful literally if you look at the statistics. It's a handful of billionaires that you know just just got it from inheritance right? The all of them just fucking worked to the. Bone like several marriages blown up several kids that they don't know like and it's not that they don't know that they have those kids like it's a different It's a different world. They're paying for their kids you know lifestyle the school, the clothes, the housing. They're sending that mother you know checks every month and everything like that. But they don't know those kids they don't know them. They know their name but they don't know them and so it's all about give and take what are you willing to give up and what are you going to get in return for giving it all up.
37:09.90
Derrick
yeah yeah yeah I mean I I mean from from what you said I mean it's I think that that's way more balanced. Um, the 50% thing um you know.
37:23.30
Joe
Yeah, so.
37:27.87
Derrick
I'm a little bit more conservative from my perspective like when I think about it I think yeah honestly I think I figure it out right? It's like I could start up my own company right? and I can actually have you perform.
37:30.67
Joe
Zero percent you figure that shit out.
37:43.56
Derrick
Activities and give you a job and give you a ten ninety nine so that you actually are getting very early experience working right? I can give you all the coaching and the mentoring so you know about process policy and procedure in your teens right.
37:45.53
Joe
E.
38:00.49
Derrick
Make you make sure you understand about you know, return of your investments and and cost benefit and all the things that they don't really teach you about bringing value to a organization and and and give and give you that experience. But when it comes to debt and college. My mindset is different like to me I'm thinking. You know an associates community College A lot of that is enough now right? because what because it's about the experience and it's about what you can do once you actually work for somebody. Nobody's paying you for your degree right? They they they might but they're.
38:31.80
Joe
E.
38:38.83
Derrick
Paying you because they think that you have some potential that that degree um would you know entail but a lot of times like you said just because you have a degree on me, you don't know you know anything it doesn't mean you have a good. Attitude or a work ethic. It doesn't mean that you're motivated that you're inspired that you go get it that you don't quit right? that that you always fight and come back. It doesn't mean any of those things it just it just means that you were able to you know, hang on through all those semesters and those curriculums and do what you needed to do to give back. And if you did the bare minimum then you would have graduated and and got that degree and and so from my perspective I'm like okay look I want to give you some actual tools some some tools the the degree.
39:15.38
Joe
Right? right.
39:27.37
Derrick
It helps right? but the system that's kind of set up now. Yeah I think that the system is for profit and it puts people in this terrible situation where you're carrying this debt like you say you don't know ah anything about it. Um, now you got to pay it off for years 25 years forbearances deferments is all that mess.
39:43.69
Joe
Wrong, okay.
39:46.78
Derrick
And it's like no how about I just I just had you work and get checks and learn how to do things and then when that other when you interview for your first job. You know, maybe it's an I t and they're like what experience do you have? you know it's not like I just graduated college and I'm fresh.
39:52.87
Joe
Right.
40:02.96
Joe
Group.
40:06.40
Derrick
It's like now I've been working doing all kinds of stuff for 7 8 nine years right? My dads had me you know rebuild servers. My dad's had me spin up domain controllers and fix thissvall right? My dad's had me configuring you know switches and and and and that right.
40:10.95
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
40:25.77
Derrick
And then it's like oh okay, well you know yeah you know, but you know yeah I mean I'm still thinking about it. You know, obviously like you say you would want to release a lot of that burden from them so they don't have to so I like that 50% idea I do with with the caveat that they so they have to contribute right.
40:42.28
Joe
Right? They have to feel they have to feel some struggle to actually know what it's like because like you know I I have um I'm very good friends with ah my wife's cousin and you know his whole family.
40:44.94
Derrick
Yeah.
41:01.16
Joe
And I've been mentoring him and in Cyber security and ah his drive is like nonexistent and it's really weird. It's challenging for me as a mentor because I have to find shit to say that will.
41:14.50
Derrick
And.
41:20.50
Joe
You know make sense to him and drive him to like get these certs to like build up his knowledge and skills. But he's just like he's like I'm fine making you know sixty Seventy k and you know I think I finally had to hit him with reality.
41:30.58
Derrick
And and.
41:39.30
Joe
Was like all right we live in Chicago Chicago is what maybe the third most expensive place in the country to live you want to have a family right? You want to have a girlfriend eventually It's like yeah of course all right when you have a girlfriend you going out to the movies. That costs you what ten bucks it's now going to cost you twenty minimum minimum. That's just to get in and if the girl wants some snacks wants some popcorn wants some pop. It doesn't matter if you don't want it. But if she wants it. You're getting it. And now that's fifty bucks right now I know that's nothing compared to your 70 grand. But if you get married you have kids you have you get a house. It. It adds up fast and you know what like he he got like that because his parents just gave him everything like.
42:26.92
Derrick
It adds up.
42:34.35
Derrick
Yeah yep, yep.
42:37.53
Joe
And I've even had this discussion with his parents I was like you know why? he's like that right like it's because you gave him everything you paid for his college you paid 100% of his college and um, you know I actually like gave him the internship while he was finishing up his last year in college.
42:42.50
Derrick
And you know.
42:56.61
Joe
And he like at the time he he had a mentality that was it was immature in the sense of like him not having student alone dead right? and I was like look you're in a room of 10 people. All 10 of us have at least 70000 in student loan debt and it's at an 8% interest rate on average I'm like you know how long that's going to take us to pay that off is like how long I'm like. 30 years probably 30 and he's like wait. It's going to take you that long to pay that off I'm like yeah because interest fucks you it actually fucks you and so that's why it's going to take us 30 years he's like oh that's the same amount as a mortgage like yeah. It is so you can you imagine paying 2 mortgages off of 1 income because that's what a lot of us have to do like and it kind of hit home right? like he he started to understand that you know he needed to make some changes in his life. Um. And you know he he got it later on in his life right? So like he's 25 26 now and he's struggling. He's still struggling to like find that drive to find that that itch. It's better than it was five years ago but you know. I feel like if you introduce a certain amount of struggle from the beginning like like even what you said that learning those life lessons I I feel like the best way to learn. It is by actually doing it by going through it. You know.
44:42.13
Derrick
Yeah, you it's It's very from what I what I've learned recently is is that I don't mentor people who don't have motivation anymore. Um I spent a lot of time a lot I mean and I mean.
44:50.93
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
44:57.81
Derrick
Potentially maybe four thousand Five Thousand hours motivating people who didn't have motivation and I just think about well what could I have accomplished with that amount of time right? and to me it was like it was a waste because the return on that did not actually.
45:08.93
Joe
E.
45:17.15
Derrick
Make it worthwhile especially like for example, like with the podcast or with memory my Youtube channel I had a video up about network plus versus the cscent or something like that francisco back in 2012 there's still people who were contacting me about that.
45:35.99
Joe
So choose well.
45:37.30
Derrick
As late as last year saying thanks right? and and it was like well yeah, see they're motivated and they went out and they're looking for a way to make their dreams come true and so when they come across what you have to say they're immediately appreciative their their gratitude and they and they show gratitude right. And if you if they actually have questions what you say will give you a thousand percent more return because they're actually open to it and they want that information now you have somebody else who's like no man look man I look.
46:04.71
Joe
Right.
46:13.41
Derrick
Um, make it seventy seventy five that's more than anybody else in my family is hell everybody in my circle thinks I'm a bowler and you sitting up in here telling me that I'm not doing well like are you crazy I think I'm doing fantastic all the things that I want I can get at any time right? but they don't think.
46:25.74
Joe
Great.
46:31.96
Derrick
About you know inflation they don't think about interest they don't think about you know, being tapped on the shoulder and told we had a workforce reduction coming you out of here. They don't get told that these rents and these mortgages are increasing fifteen twenty percent year over year like they have the last year through year right.
46:34.95
Joe
Yeah.
46:47.24
Joe
Every year
46:51.52
Derrick
And so you realize and this is what I tell people all the time like look robotics are coming so you may be okay where you are now 60 65 seventy seventy five you take your fine right? But think about what you do for work and think about whether or not they're actually actively trying to.
47:05.29
Joe
Right? so.
47:10.76
Derrick
Program and automate out your job now think about what happens when you lose that position and you had no motivation to accumulate a skill set that would have had you go to the next position up right? So pretty much you're like trying to run up flight of stairs While. You know the basement is flooding right? If you can't outpace that flood then you're going to drown right? So you need to make sure that you understand that once you so especially in a situation like this and and like I said it's perfectly Fine If You're okay, with.
47:33.35
Joe
Group.
47:45.98
Derrick
Making what you're making in your content and you shift your focus to other things hey that's fine. That's great right? But that's a conscious decision and that's your risk management right? So when something happens you're either going to get buried by it or you're going to do what you got to do in order to make things happen.
47:48.58
Joe
Right.
48:04.47
Derrick
And unfortunately some people they need to be in crisis before they actually turn on that. Go get them and I've realized that that it's that it makes no sense to try to motivate people who will only move when it's a crisis because it's better for you to set up.
48:08.63
Joe
Yeah, you.
48:24.36
Derrick
A structure so that when they actually are in that crisis. You could say make go to that website I set up and look at all that stuff that I've been putting up for years follow that iin't got much to tell you you know I've already put in.
48:33.81
Joe
Right? right? Yeah, there's there's a lot of people that um you know before the podcast they'd reach out and they'd be like hey you know I need your advice on this or whatever right.
48:42.90
Derrick
Work.
48:53.18
Joe
The podcast I just handled all of it like ah like almost a hundred percent of it. Um, and so now it's great I get to just direct people to the podcast and be like man I already talked about this for hours like hours at great length.
49:04.55
Derrick
Anything.
49:11.58
Joe
And um, you know it's it's interesting because you know so so I'm in in cloud security and I never expected to be successful in cloud security. You basically need to be a developer and everyone on my team. Like says the exact same thing like I didn't go into cloud security. Be ah to be a developer but evidently I need no terraform inside and now I need no python need to know, go you know? and so I'm going through that right now right? I'm learning all that stuff. Um. And it reminds me of like you know when I was younger and my dad worked for at and t for like 1718 years as a phone technician you know working on phone lines for large businesses and stuff like that. And ah when the recession happened at and t completely eliminated the field the entire field like sprint eliminated it T-mobile eliminated. There's Verizon eliminated. There's at and t eliminated There's literally overnight literally. Was a Tuesday and he had a job. You know he worked on Monday came in to work on Tuesday and he left with no job after 18 years he didn't get a pension and he was like I'm going to retired in 2 years going to get this full pension and um. You know he he was trying to find a job right? based on the skills that he had currently present day that he built over the last 18 years and no one would hire him because the entire industry that he had experience in for all those years literally evaporated overnight and. I think it was he was like specialized in like analog phone lines or something like that and overnight it basically switched to ip and he was like you know with at and t I was going to get the training for this literally in thirty days literally in thirty days I was going to get this training and you're telling me I can't do this job like that's bullshit and it was bullshit. It was complete bullshit. Um, and people want to hire him and he had to completely reinvent himself. He reinvented himself 3 times. Over the next two and a half to 3 years literally just to put food on the table. I mean there was absolutely times when you'd go in my freezer. There was no food. You go in the fridge. No food. You go in the pantry nothing and my parents had three little kids.
52:03.97
Joe
I couldn't imagine I couldn't imagine having three little kids and being in that situation and what that would feel like as a parent I couldn't even I couldn't even come close to imagining that right? and so I mean I I just use that as fuel. You know I use that as fuel one to not make the same mistake I try to diversify my skill set a little bit more than just cloud security I like to think that I'm a little bit more than a cloud security guy. Um, but you know I also work really fucking hard to make sure that. Hey if I if I lose my job. It doesn't really matter because I have this savings account that I've built over the past axi years and it's there waiting for emergencies just like this right and like you know.
52:53.60
Derrick
Disaster recovery.
52:58.77
Joe
Like my dad emptied out his 4 Ah one k he's still working a day and he's like 62 because he had to empty out his 4 1 k in order to provide right? and then the 4 1 k ran out. You know what? I mean like you can't rely on the 4 one k or emergencies.
53:08.15
Derrick
Yeah, yeah, it's it I mean unfortunately the way that most businesses are set up. Um, you have some that obviously pay really well for what you know the person is doing. Yet, you don't really have a lot of um, let's say there's not a lot of people. Let's speak. Let's speak about it from we can talk about the cybersecurity shortage or whatever they want to call it right? But just think about I T There are so many people people in my family. That when I got into I T I was trying to get into it and they were like I don't like computers like that and I was like you think this got anything to do with likeking something This is about Stability this is about putting food on your plate like do do you like working at Foot locker.
53:48.21
Joe
Um.
53:56.10
Joe
Ah, yeah, forever right.
54:04.91
Derrick
Do you like working at blockbuster. Do you like working like I can understand it if you were actually doing something that you love you were chasing a dream right? But if you're just finding work and you're just doing whatever came available right? and then you have somebody that's like look I got the inside. Path for you hear to get into it and you know maybe in 2 to 3 years you can be a help desk to help desk level 3 and you double would you know multiply your salary 2.5 times and you will have a career path if you actually started to you know.
54:33.76
Joe
Right? right.
54:43.81
Derrick
Look at it from that perspective and it's just like no I'm not really into computers like that and it's like okay, but the whole world is converting over from a analog to a digital infrastructure every country you know that's a first world country is adopting more and more technology more and more computers.
54:47.36
Joe
Yeah. Right.
55:03.35
Derrick
Et Cetera this is where the demand is and you know you can You can try to sell people I used to try to sell people and I get real passionate and I do my speech and all that and some people were like yeah I hear what you' talking about whatever but you know a lot of times. It's like look I just got to show you right? It's like I'll just show you.
55:18.66
Joe
Yeah, yes.
55:22.00
Derrick
Right? Because the thing is I can't spend time convincing you to do something what I can do is do it and then you can say down. Well hopefully you say he ain't no better than me. Hopefully you say.
55:25.80
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
55:35.60
Joe
Right? right? right.
55:39.56
Derrick
And Derek is a fucking mor on man I can do this right? and and then that motivate you to also do it right? But a lot of times it just ends up being a thing where I think that it's like I put in all this work and effort to get to this position and I'm comfortable. You're telling me I'm gonna have to put in a whole bunch of work like you said to reinvent myself in order to become comfortable again and it's like well if comfort Ai n't really that appealing to you then why are you allowing it to stop you from growing in the position that you're in.
56:12.38
Joe
Right.
56:14.87
Derrick
Because if I'm telling you that I'm gonna take away your comfort and you know that you're gonna have to reinvent yourself to get that comfort back. Well while you're comfortable. Maybe you should take a proactive approach and say that hey every year I'm gonna learn a skill or 2 that.
56:26.66
Joe
Right.
56:34.79
Derrick
Seems to be coming down the pipeline so that if anything happens that turn around for me getting another job or getting into another field. Maybe I can make it so that it only takes a couple of months versus a couple of years right because in a couple of years like you said you might have undone.
56:46.33
Joe
Right.
56:51.61
Derrick
All those savings you've done undone your 4 1 k you under and a lot of stuff and I think that I mean you did a good like I said it's just about having people around. You has that mentality and shares that information with you? Um, but then a lot of times we end up being the Debbie downers right? We're always.
57:01.53
Joe
Um.
57:09.85
Derrick
Preaching about the next apocalypse and the next you know thing that can change everybody's life and everybody else is like look man I'm comfortable man I Just want to laugh and joke and why you got to be coming up in here with all this you know hard core. Get your stuff together Mentality I'm just chilling and it's like.
57:10.68
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
57:16.28
Joe
New right. Yeah, yeah.
57:28.30
Derrick
You know? well you know what I did what I said it and I and I reached out so I did what I had to do. It's not my job to to save you if you didn't if you weren't looking you know for help.
57:38.51
Joe
Yeah, yeah, that that describes a good friend of mine perfectly like ah you know I I went to second grade with this guy like we we went through all all of grade school together kept in touch. You know ever since we hang out. On a fairly regular basis. It's slightly regular you know I feel like you got to keep people like that at distance. So that shit doesn't rub off on you because it's easy to fall into that and not saying not to be friends with them still be friends with them. But monitor the amount of time that you spend with them and um, exactly that like he's in a job that could literally be outsourced at any point in time it could be replaced by a robot at any point in time like literally any day and. It's a job that he also can't do forever. It's a physical labor job and he he's young now. But I mean he's like what 31 32 now. But when he's 40 his body is going to change and it's going to be more difficult and when he's 50. It's going to be more difficult and when it's sit when he's 60 it's going to be impossible. You know, um and he'll he'll even he'll even admit it he'll be like yeah I I should just start I should do it. You know and I literally sent him like the longest email in the world telling him step by step everything to do for the next you know 2 years and he. If he followed it if he'd literally just followed it like you know I told him this maybe three four years ago if he would have just followed it like his income probably would have tripled minimum minimum tripled um, just because I know how the market is I know this field you know inside and out. And even today he'll be like yeah I should just I just need to start following it I just need to start doing it I'm like well what the fuck are you waiting on like really like what are you waiting on like I don't understand like it's never going to be the right time. It's never going to be the perfect situation for you to start picking up new skills like you think I really want to start like studying for certs right? like I'm at like year eight into my career. You really think I want to keep studying for certs I have a master's degree isn't that enough like fuck you know I don't want to do that. But. You know what you do it to fucking get new skills so that you're not obsolete you know and ah he he he just doesn't understand that like and you know I have to really gauge and monitor my own expectations.
01:00:28.66
Derrick
Call Yeah, that.
01:00:30.66
Joe
Of him and and and I will I will even give him shit for it. He'll he'll say it and I'll be like I will bet you $5000 that next year we will have the same conversation and you will be in the same place and you know what I want him to call me out on it.
01:00:45.33
Derrick
And.
01:00:50.80
Joe
I Want him to I will gladly pay him that money if he fucking calls me out on it and does it.
01:00:53.32
Derrick
Um, ah I'll tell you what I've done for 2 people. 2 people that some of the people I care about the most I created a a structure for them like hey if you get the a plus I'll give you $500
01:01:00.54
Joe
So.
01:01:12.38
Derrick
That's a reward if you read this book. There's two hundred bucks if you read that book that's sixty bucks this book eighty bucks that book three hundred bucks and I had a spreadsheet that would actually show how much money they would make to help them transition into it or you know.
01:01:14.83
Joe
Wow.
01:01:32.25
Derrick
Space because what they were doing. They didn't like the jobs could you know disappear anytime. All this stuff right? and I'm like well look I'm trying to help you right? So even you just going through all the stuff I set up for you. You can make $4000
01:01:32.75
Joe
That's so. Is.
01:01:49.36
Derrick
And you can make this as quick as you go through all those materials right? and and and this is going to help you because once you have it all. You're going to have the certifications you're going to have that knowledge all that dude I mean like not 1 thing on that spreadsheet was accomplished. Not one.
01:02:05.43
Joe
And.
01:02:08.36
Derrick
And it's like I wish somebody would pay me to read a book. Can you imagine kid. But it's like you have to realize so they don't want it. They don't want it right.
01:02:10.90
Joe
God man. Ah dude yeah that that opportunity man if I was given that opportunity like even now even now I would be like yeah.
01:02:23.82
Derrick
Now even now hey Joe I'm a I'm a pay you to get your Aws dev ops if if you can get that in the next year I'm gonna give you two thousand bucks right
01:02:29.90
Joe
But of um, fuck it like I'll get six months what you talking about I got a house to pay for I need that 2000
01:02:42.99
Derrick
A man. But yeah, it's just like so and and that's the thing right? I think a lot of what I've learned and this is some of this stuff I Like you know that I've learned um a lot of people don't want help. They just want somebody. That's sympathetic to them and does want to listen to them.
01:02:56.93
Joe
They want a handout. Yeah yeah.
01:03:02.54
Derrick
And hear them complain hear them. You know, bitch hear them moan and whether it's fair unfair. That's fine, but they just want somebody that's going to listen to them and and and and and and and be somebody who's going to be emotionally supportive of them and say yeah man it sucks man that situation you're in it sucks.
01:03:20.56
Joe
Right? right.
01:03:22.44
Derrick
It does suck but they don't want. They don't want you to fix their problems right? They just want you to just be a good friend and listen to them and say it sucks when it's a shitty situation and that's more than enough from from them right? They actually give you more credit for that than.
01:03:35.25
Joe
Yep.
01:03:40.75
Derrick
Ah, detailed road map for a fixing their issue. Um, and what I've noticed is is that I've I'm trying to figure out how to manage that in the work environment because when I have people who report to me who don't have motivation to grow or develop.
01:03:42.50
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
01:03:56.63
Joe
E.
01:03:58.42
Derrick
And it's like oh so you just want to come in and press that button and get paid. But if I left this up to you and came back in a year you wouldn't actually know anything more about your program than what you knew a year ago and they're perfectly fine with that. But that upsets me.
01:04:13.71
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
01:04:15.73
Derrick
Because like you said we come from situations in which you we seen struggle. We seen the struggle first hand right? So there's there there is no chance that we would have something that getting into it get into security was a pain we had to work our ass off to get into it.
01:04:19.21
Joe
Lived it how we lived it? yes.
01:04:34.10
Derrick
And then be told that you own your own functional area. You can become a master or a sme in any area that you take an interest into and then don't do anything and it's like oh man. And now I got to sit here and professionally try to mentor and coach you into having some kind of passion and some want to actually develop yourself and I'm like man there's people on Reddit there's people to listen to this podcast. There are people who are dying to get into security.
01:05:05.80
Joe
Then no.
01:05:07.84
Derrick
And I have people who I can set up a road map for them on everything about how to develop a security program and they like look I'm okay with just pressing this button.
01:05:20.44
Joe
I'm okay with making my 45 fifty k a year struggling to pay bills living paycheck to paycheck I'm comfortable. You know, yeah, get missed me with that.
01:05:27.60
Derrick
Yeah, what was going with all that mass man exactly So it's like yeah man, it's not for them. So you know that's it. That's um.
01:05:36.90
Joe
You can miss me with that man. Yeah, that's that's that's how it is man. It's yeah God man I Wish someone.
01:05:50.77
Derrick
That's the frustrating part right? but but.
01:05:52.57
Joe
I wish someone would have fucking paid me to read the security plus book man I read that thing 3 times I read that 3 times and then my friend who was making more money than me heard that I was struggling and I had helped him out years years prior and he sent me the money for the cert.
01:06:09.43
Derrick
Nice.
01:06:12.19
Joe
Was the only reason why I was able to take the cert and it was $300 I was so fucking broke I literally couldn't afford $300 you know like but I just wanted it I just wanted it so bad you know.
01:06:19.89
Derrick
Yeah, yeah.
01:06:26.35
Derrick
Yeah, yeah, well,, that's the I think that's the you know the the the best advice that I could give to anybody about anything at this point is is that. If. You don't have a appropriate motivation to accomplish what it is that you're saying that you want to accomplish don't even don't don't even do it. Don't even do it figure out how to get yourself motivated because.
01:06:50.31
Joe
You know? yeah. Right.
01:07:00.65
Derrick
That first time and you come across any kind of a obstacle that is all you would have needed in order to say you know what I'm done I'm done so don't do it to yourself. Make sure that this is something that it doesn't matter if you fail a hundred times you want to get up because that's how much it matters to you and.
01:07:17.22
Joe
No no.
01:07:20.50
Derrick
Getting into Security. That's the kind of attitude you have to have because you're going to interview and you're going to be told they're going to another person and the excuse is not going to be very.. It's not going to make much sense but you have to say well you missing out on somebody who. Is only going to improve and become better and grow and learn more and more and more and more so your loss.
01:07:41.55
Joe
Right? right? Yeah that's that's ah it's 2 full. Well I got 2 things to respond with that right? Um, that's 100 % true those people that turned me down before. Can fuck off like if you if you go back through your system see that I applied and you denied me based on some bullshit. Don't um, bother reaching out. Don't bother I will put you on blast not publicly but to you and.
01:08:08.70
Derrick
Um, look at me now. Ah.
01:08:21.60
Joe
But actually that happened recently where it's like yearly the same fucking company reaches out to me and they always they find some role to interview me for that's like the next step in my career right? like so it's architect right.
01:08:26.80
Derrick
A.
01:08:40.95
Joe
I go through a month two months of interviews at least 1 interview a week for two months and then they don't give me a verdict for six months they don't respond to my emails after I go through the entire process. They don't do anything this has happened to me 3 times same company different recruiters and I'm just like man fuck this like the way that you treated me right? There is unacceptable. All right. It's it's unacceptable for the lowest person in this career to be treated like that. You know when I email you a month after my final interview in the process and you don't email me back. You can't even give me that courtesy to tell me like yeah you weren't selected. Don't wait on this. You know, whatever like. I don't need that right? and Cad what was the other thing that I was going to say.
01:09:42.60
Joe
I Don't know shit.
01:09:44.31
Derrick
Well, you know what I I didn't I have a question. The question was is what situation left you the most frustrated this year or the last year since the podcast started. It could be between work or you know.
01:09:54.41
Joe
Yeah, you know what? so yeah so I I this isn't even about the podcast you know in my day job like I really really enjoy when I identify a gap in. The tech stack at a company and I I personally undertake all of the work to bring in the vendor bring in the third party to do all those sales negotiations. You know po see the solution in the environment outline the value added to the organization. Everything like that and then I'm taking off the project and that that happened to me last year not at my current role but it happened to me last year where you know I I was all for bringing in octa into this environment. Right? Like all for it. The the company needed it badly um and it fit nicely into my skill set. So I could you know easily deploy it myself if I had to and I got buy in from the cto. I got buy-in from the lead architect I got buy-in from my entire management chain and the problem was that I didn't report directly to a security department and and because I technically was not security. By security's own definition even though all of security except for 2 managers considered me to be more of a security expert than even them. Um, because I wasn't security. Those 2 managers basically put a stop to it all. People that I didn't report to put a stop to my project. Um and eventually the cto came in and they're like he's like no, we're going with this technology. You need to figure it out and you know the basically the architect. Left that I had ah you know he had my side on it. So I had no one with any real authority backing me up and ah, you know they kicked me off the project. They shrung me along for three four months kicked me off the project. Um, and basically said that they weren't going to go with the solution. Even if they did go with the solution I wouldn't be a part of it and all I asked was that I led the project. That's all I asked because like look I found the opportunity I found the tech I did the you know risk versus reward.
01:12:42.27
Joe
Benefit all that bullshit I presented it to the Cto I presented it to my Vp. My manager, the security architect team as a whole and all of them signed off on it right? All of them wanted it I found the vendor to negotiate the prices right? I convinced the vendor. To give me free training so that I could deploy the tool I convinced them I said if you give me the free training I guarantee you this is going into the environment because I'll be deploying it and I need the training they're like okay done I got the free training you know like. It was insane the amount of work and preparation that I did to make this successful and literally due to politics I was just taken off taking off the project literally purely because of politics because I didn't report to a security Manager. And I mean that that like crushed that just completely crushed me completely and so like you know at my current place when I was interviewing the seeso asked Me. He's like what was your biggest. You know, let down or failure and I told him about that situation goes man. That's bullshit. But why would they do that to you I'm like that's just how that place works. It's a very old company politics is everything there if you don't have political Capital. You ain't get anything done. And he's just like man that's not going to happen here and soon he said that I was sold I was like man send me the fucking offer.
01:14:18.43
Derrick
Yeah, that's the thing That's the thing about college is not going to teach you about that right.
01:14:25.16
Joe
Yeah I didn't know anything of what I was doing I I was never taught how to do any of that I was never taught how to do a vendor analysis I was never taught how to select a vendor why one would be better for an environment. I was never taught how to present to the cto or my Vp or my director or anything like that never taught never really had any experience with that before like you know I I leaned on other people that had that experience I leaned on you to give me advice I leaned on other people.
01:14:42.50
Derrick
Further away.
01:14:58.70
Joe
That I've looked up to you know to give me advice on it and create these fucking powerpoints and everything you know to make them all formatted correctly and everything and and do the proper analysis like you're not going to learn that in a textbook.
01:15:14.60
Derrick
Yeah, you're not that says that this is some of the things that you only going to get once you on a job and and then you realize that again, you know as technical as you are as as a lot as as much as a lot of things could possibly be.
01:15:17.00
Joe
You know.
01:15:33.17
Derrick
It's it's people and you're dealing with people and you're dealing with their motivations and so we're you know the best thing that all of us can do is just understand that that that type of environment. A lot of people are in that environment. And and and you just take your wins and you package them up and you go somewhere where that type of stuff doesn't get in the way of progress because there are too many companies that get hail back by stuff like that where it didn't matter who brought the idea to the table. It didn't matter who would lead in the.
01:16:03.78
Joe
Yeah.
01:16:08.13
Derrick
If Somebody's being accountable and Responsible. You should empower that it doesn't matter what area in the organization that they're in and if you want to say that we're not going to get the kudos or the political capital of delivering this because the project is officially with that department and they don't report to this particular person. Right? there you lost you lost because you're no longer doing it for the right reasons.
01:16:27.32
Joe
yeah yeah yeah I mean and that company has very decrepit processes and technology and. You know the the tech that they do have isn't deployed properly because politics they don't want to deploy it in a certain way or whatever you know and like even they're just a d infrastructure is antiquated. You know like I was literally hired to. Undo the spider web of their a d environment and recommend modern security practices and the guy who set it up who ended up retiring. There was against everything that I said just because it was different from what he said and I had to I had to you know. Preface everything with what you did was 100 % correct and the best possible architecture fifteen years ago when you set it up. It. It was 100 % correct there's just new solutions new technology out there that.
01:17:30.48
Derrick
You know, right.
01:17:41.66
Joe
Achieves Exactly what you're trying to achieve in a better more simple way and he wasn't He was not all about it man he was not not happy with me that he was not happy with me.
01:17:47.76
Derrick
You try to bullit me.
01:17:58.79
Derrick
Wow. Well you did I mean that's the best you could do right? and you said that there would That's the best approach and a lot of times you you take a L Even though you did everything in your power for the you know the win and that's just what it is right? It's just you know you win some you lose some and.
01:18:04.60
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
01:18:18.42
Derrick
So because you do the right thing then you know at the end of the day just makes for a ah nice story. You can tell why you're having you know one of your yeah you know your shots because we are all stories where it's just like yeah let me tell you about this This is gonna have you dying because.
01:18:35.87
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
01:18:38.45
Derrick
It's ridiculous, but that's just the nature of security right? and and and and that's the approach you know like I said with this podcast is why I enjoy it the security on filter like telling those stories and knowing that you can say all the right things and you can be in the right, but you know there's just going to be situations where you know people are like. That's my legacy.
01:18:56.56
Joe
Um, yeah, right right? Yeah I Like you know I pitched the ah I pitched the idea to him and ah.
01:18:58.33
Derrick
And as not I'm here you ain't changing it that would be me O admitttting that I did it wrong.
01:19:14.20
Joe
You know he was against it I was like all right I'm going to wait until he retires it was he was retired in like five months or something so I waited five months pitched it again to everyone else. Got everyone's buy-in and and then just the 1 person that was like nah he ain't security. It's a security tool. He ai n't doing it my dog I know you're literally the manager of this entire domain and I know more about this domain than you know I know more about your own tech stack than you know like come on. You and you know that's that's a lesson I had to learn like you could be 100 % correct you could say all the right things you can even get all of the right buy-in and still be unsuccessful just because no one in your management chain.
01:19:53.54
Derrick
That's why he let you do it.
01:20:06.27
Derrick
Yeah, yeah.
01:20:11.21
Joe
Will override some asshole that really doesn't have any shouldn't have any say in it. You know if if your management doesn't have any sort of backbone to be like ah no, you're stepping out of line here. We're going to go with his idea. It's a better idea.
01:20:15.87
Derrick
Um, yeah.
01:20:30.32
Joe
This is going to help the company and that's a it's a problem. Yeah.
01:20:33.70
Derrick
Yeah, yeah, and it's it's it's It's a it's something that's everywhere. But like you said you, you just learned from it I'm starting to learn a lot more about timing right? like it's just an issue of timing like you know if maybe if it was a different year.
01:20:47.23
Joe
Yeah, yeah, so.
01:20:52.54
Derrick
And there was a different management group your idea what it went through without any obstacle any objection right? So it's just about timing at that point and that's where it's like you know it's just not the right time for it. It don't take it personal because the more you take things personal like that like I said then.
01:20:56.54
Joe
Probably we have.
01:21:11.14
Derrick
You don't really have an outlet for that right there There's no way that you're going to be able to get rid of that kind of animosity or that resentment or that frustration unless you you you let it go you just have to let it go.
01:21:12.57
Joe
Yeah, um, so.
01:21:25.26
Joe
Yeah I would say it. It may not be the right time but you also don't have to wait around for it to be the right time like we have a finite amount of time I can't wait on a company 101520 years for them to do some shit.
01:21:36.56
Derrick
Right? Yeah, exactly.
01:21:42.83
Joe
That I wanted them to do forever and now that idea is so antiquated like we shouldn't even be doing it like no like if they're not if they're not buying in if we're not moving forward. You know within twelve months I'm I'm going somewhere else just one blank. Yeah.
01:21:54.79
Derrick
Yeah, exactly yep, take control. Yep you only have control over what you have control over and you could say hey well I'll take these services somewhere else I I did my work while was here we should all be good right? okay.
01:22:06.91
Joe
Yeah, it's It's not like this is the only place of tiring right? Yeah, got.
01:22:13.35
Derrick
All right? It's not or has a D because so it's like a a all good here. It's all good.
01:22:25.69
Joe
That's that's made Microsoft like greatest product that they ever created. Let's create something that literally every company needs and we're just going to do this thing better than anyone else and once we're tied in a it's going to be a real easy sell to integrate. Windows servers with it and the great you know windows laptops with it all of them and it's like god I don't think I've ever I don't think I've ever even been to a place that had.
01:22:47.41
Derrick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they they definitely ah made it So Ill that.
01:23:00.65
Joe
Was it open ldap or whatever it is the linux version but I don't think I've ever even interviewed at a place that had something other than eighty I mean that's wild.
01:23:03.59
Derrick
Its different versions that L das. Yeah, but yeah, they all like you know some kind of L da.
01:23:15.11
Derrick
it's it's it's it well once like you said once you get started you you set the market and then now everybody's skilled and your particular you know so it just pervasive at that point and and that's just what happens and that's why Microsoft is what it is and you know I commend them on it. Um.
01:23:23.70
Joe
No.
01:23:32.49
Derrick
You know they they have a juggernaut. They have a massive juggernaut.
01:23:35.92
Joe
They do man we were talking about it last week on the podcast where um, whereas like man once you start doing 1 thing with Microsoft It's so easy to just accept. You know the next service the next Whatever you need from Microsoft because they not only do they sell just about everything like you know 1 thing in each category right? like they have if you have a need they can most likely meet it but they give you they start giving you discounts the more that you buy from them right? and.
01:24:11.95
Derrick
It is very.
01:24:12.69
Joe
It's risky man. It's risky I mean it's not say Microsoft is going to go out of business. But what if Microsoft stores your data in a format that's proprietary to Microsoft and it's like oh yeah, you could export the data but it's going to be in this fucking format. They.
01:24:25.93
Derrick
And she put. Ah.
01:24:28.82
Joe
You're going to have to pay us $10000000 to revert and you know because it's not easy and you know like it's a real thing. It's a real thing or or a vulnerability.
01:24:34.58
Derrick
Or vulnerability that that Don only impacts their their their services and it's it's pervasive. And yeah I mean managing calls down I've seen it and recently that's one of the things I saw where it was like doesn't Microsoft have that offering. Is it good enough and you know most organizations don't do a real good job of gathering technical requirements and functional requirements and business requirements. They're just looking to say that hey what are we using that for can Microsoft do it. Oh if they are doing it and it's only 35% or 50% as good as the other vendor. A lot of times. It's like they're like what with the cost savings but the cost savings and I've seen that where's like you know you had a portfolio of of security tools and 5 or 6 of them. You know they're coming up for renewal and they're all going to the Microsoft version because.
01:25:15.37
Joe
Yeah, ah.
01:25:30.90
Derrick
Well they got e five s in there and it's just more pricing power for for them and it's like well I guess we're doing this with Microsoft now right? and it's like it's it just goes against the tenet of of having different you know vendors and and not being vendor locked in but it's like what you gonna tell these people.
01:25:31.43
Joe
Yeah, yeah.
01:25:48.88
Derrick
Right? that this is their business decision. So.
01:25:51.66
Joe
Dude I worked at a place that if Microsoft didn't make it. It wasn't bought and it doesn't matter how well Microsoft does it doesn't matter. They do not care that that was the running joke.
01:25:54.85
Derrick
Kind of. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
01:26:09.49
Joe
Was like oh we're looking for edr all Microsoft got an Edr guess who we're gonna go with. Ah.
01:26:10.10
Derrick
Yeah, exactly That's what I was say up like yeah man that though that doesn't Ji with anything that I know about you know, reducing your ability ah be completely decimated.
01:26:22.19
Joe
I Like you you.
01:26:27.72
Joe
Right.
01:26:29.85
Derrick
Buy of vendder's particular issue catastrophe that happens when they've been there. But.
01:26:33.52
Joe
And it's funny. We even like I even like pulled up the gartner report that we paid for you know, comparing Microsoft's Edr at the time to every other edr and it was like it. It was basically lucky to be on the graph at point in time.
01:26:47.30
Derrick
Have.
01:26:51.59
Joe
And everyone was just like oh well, they're on the graph I mean don't get there. They're Microsoft man. They'll get there and like cheese is like maybe buy them when they get there like.
01:26:53.90
Derrick
I.
01:27:02.60
Derrick
Right? right? Exactly like do we not have any like legitimate record. Yeah, it's like no no, we don't It's just.
01:27:07.50
Joe
Do we have no standards and and Microsoft would take us out to like the nicest dinner I mean they they would rent out the entire the entire restaurant I mean I've never had it before where ah where you're literally spending so much money with a vendor that. That vendor will literally rent out the entire restaurant for 10 people and it's a big fucking restaurant. It's a nice steakhouse downtown which is like a get.
01:27:33.59
Derrick
And Microsoft got that that Activision money you don't they could do that I guess.
01:27:38.86
Joe
Well yeah, when you're paying for fucking like 1% of the Activision deal a month like dude their bill with Microsoft was outrageous outrageous just for azure alone I mean it was.
01:27:45.17
Derrick
But she's.
01:27:58.12
Joe
It was insane microsoft had like several account managers on it I'm like damn like they acting like we're a 5200000 person company. We're 2000 people like how much are we spending on this.
01:28:01.83
Derrick
A.
01:28:13.45
Derrick
Here.
01:28:16.97
Joe
No well well hey man like we've gone way over. Do you have any other questions.
01:28:22.19
Derrick
Now I think that ah outside of well I'll leave you just the one any trend any trend that you see coming up. Ah that either has you worried or makes you think that? Um. Going to be good for the space because yeah I mean it's going to be another year and I really don't see too many trends. Um, you know I just think that we're seeing more the same and for me the only trend that I'm concerned about is.
01:28:40.72
Joe
Oh.
01:28:55.93
Derrick
Again, not having any real set standard on what makes a good security program in terms of what you're doing.
01:29:01.44
Joe
Yeah I think I think um, the only trend that I'm really seeing is that companies are getting used to the cloud like we're still in like the Cloud security trend. You know where.
01:29:11.87
Derrick
Yeah.
01:29:18.89
Joe
I Don't think it'll ever go away. But I think that it'll be you know, surpassed as like number 1 in a couple years. But yeah, like companies are still trying to figure out Cloud Security they're still trying to just wrap their heads around how to actually do it and that's probably the biggest area. Um, I would say apart from that I think I think probably crypto is going to be a big trend that's going to be integrated a lot more as these you know different blockchains are being proven out and everything like I can see. A lot of the companies that I previously worked with and maybe the one that I currently work with can use the blockchain you know to increase security I mean if you look at like blockchain security roles like I think there's more available now than there's ever been and I can count.
01:30:01.26
Derrick
Okay. Hey. Yeah.
01:30:15.26
Joe
On one hand the amount of people that I know with any sort of blockchain security skills. Let alone experience.
01:30:16.16
Derrick
Ah, hey. Right? You know that's Great. Yep Cloud and and crypt and and Cryptography. So make sure you guys are keeping that in your your path so you can future proof yourself.
01:30:27.71
Joe
No.
01:30:36.93
Joe
Yeah, definitely well hey. Thanks man, Thanks for coming on Obviously ah well I'll have you back on in a couple weeks. You know.
01:30:44.59
Derrick
Yeah, it was a joy man I enjoyed myself again and I had an absolute blast.
01:30:50.72
Joe
Yeah, we had a good conversation. Well thanks, everyone for listening Hope you enjoyed the episode go out and have a good week. See you.
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