Ever wondered how an experienced IT recruiter could help you land your dream job, or navigate the fast-paced world of AI and data security? Join us as our special guest, John, a seasoned IT recruiter with 10 years of experience, shares his unique perspective on the industry, the importance of finding great people for great jobs, and how the best recruiters genuinely have their candidates' best interests at heart.
From transitioning to technical roles and having trusted connections to help you get your foot in the door, we explore the various roles available across different organizations and how working with recruiters can connect you with opportunities you wouldn't have found alone. As you move up the ranks in your career, learn how recruiters can help you make that leap from mid-level positions to executive search.
Finally, we tackle the increasingly important topics of data security, automation, and AI, discussing the growing demand for infrastructure automation, security automation, and data privacy and governance. John sheds light on the emerging and lucrative field of AI security, highlighting the potential risks posed by AI and the need for caution in developing this technology. Don't miss this valuable episode packed with industry insights and networking advice from an IT recruiter who has been there and done that!
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TikTok: Not today China! Not today
1
00:00:00
Speaker 1: How's it going, john?
00:00:00
It's been a while since since we last talked.
00:00:04
I mean, I think the last time that we talked it might have
00:00:07
been for lunch back in October.
00:00:10
So it's great to see you again.
00:00:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, you were just about to head over to Germany, i
00:00:14
think for the NFL game.
00:00:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one last going away party for me before I
00:00:19
had the kid.
00:00:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely Congratulations again.
00:00:23
That's awesome.
00:00:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely It's .
00:00:26
It's a game changer, that's for sure, as as I'm learning the
00:00:31
hard way, yeah my wife and I are kind of right on that edge of.
00:00:35
Speaker 2: that's part of the reason why we we moved back, so
00:00:38
I'm not probably not too far behind you.
00:00:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, man, like it
00:00:45
changes so frequently like, right, when you get used to you
00:00:50
know, one flow or one like schedule type thing, it changes
00:00:55
and it's like, oh, i can't put her in the swing without you
00:01:00
know the seat belt on because she decided to like kick her way
00:01:04
out and an effort to like get out, you know, and have fun.
00:01:07
This is, it's interesting for sure.
00:01:10
But you know, john, i start everyone off with getting their
00:01:15
background.
00:01:16
You know what's your, what's your background?
00:01:18
How did you start to get into recruiting?
00:01:23
You're the first recruiter I've ever had on the podcast, but I
00:01:26
think it's a valuable perspective because there's a
00:01:29
lot of bad recruiters out there that give recruiters a really
00:01:33
bad name that you know I've had to steer people away from and,
00:01:38
you know, discuss what it's like with them and whatnot.
00:01:41
Right, and I think this is an important conversation because
00:01:47
there's a good amount of my audience that you know they're
00:01:50
looking to get into security, they're looking to get into IT,
00:01:53
they're trying to potentially even make a career change And
00:01:58
recruiters can absolutely help them make that jump.
00:02:00
You know it's like recruiters are in on the, on the, i guess,
00:02:05
like the back room deals, right, the back room conversations and
00:02:08
they can speak on your behalf in ways that we're not able to
00:02:13
right, we're not, maybe we're not even skilled enough to.
00:02:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely.
00:02:19
And first of all, you know, appreciate you having me on, so
00:02:23
I'll hit the first part on kind of my background and how I got
00:02:27
here.
00:02:27
So I've been in the recruiting industry for just about 10 years
00:02:32
And I guess it's kind of a combination of both recruiting
00:02:35
and kind of technology, professional services.
00:02:38
So I've had a couple of different roles, primarily
00:02:42
across leadership, delivery, leadership, which you know we
00:02:45
call delivery, recruiting.
00:02:46
Delivery It's delivery of, you know, obviously, individuals to
00:02:50
the clients And then working with the clients and business
00:02:53
development, even though I hate the term business development,
00:02:56
it's so internally focused, look it's.
00:02:58
We want to help clients out, right, we want, we want to help
00:03:01
clients solve their problems, fill their gaps, those types of
00:03:04
things, right.
00:03:04
That's the way kind of I operate.
00:03:06
Actually, surprisingly enough, prior to getting in recruiting,
00:03:09
i was a high school basketball coach and high school math
00:03:13
teacher for a couple of years.
00:03:14
So just a funny little tidbit there.
00:03:17
But you know, on the side of you know kind of working with
00:03:21
recruiters and maybe we can start out just kind of
00:03:23
addressing the recruiting industry itself, because I do
00:03:26
agree with you, there is a little bit of a stigma and it's
00:03:30
deserved, right.
00:03:31
I think you know there's, there's a lot of recruiters out
00:03:35
there who don't have the candidates best interests at
00:03:39
heart.
00:03:39
They're most concerned about making money And you know, if
00:03:45
they, you know, need to step on a few toes and do a few of those
00:03:51
things along the way, like, unfortunately, they're okay with
00:03:54
doing that.
00:03:54
So that's, that's a stigma and a reputation that you know
00:03:58
myself, i and and and my team you know, battle every single
00:04:02
day.
00:04:03
So I think the most important thing is, you know, i think when
00:04:08
you get on the phone with a recruiter, you can tell in the
00:04:11
first two or three minutes is this person invested and
00:04:14
interested in me or are they just trying to sell a job to me?
00:04:18
Right, and the best recruiters are actually recruiting great
00:04:22
people.
00:04:22
I tell my team their job is to not fill positions.
00:04:25
Their job is to find great people and put those people in
00:04:30
jobs that are great for them.
00:04:31
Right, my, my sales team, my business development team their
00:04:34
job is to fill their positions.
00:04:36
Right.
00:04:36
So we partner together and if our recruiters are doing a
00:04:39
really nice job of finding great people and our salespeople are
00:04:43
doing a really nice job of finding great clients and great
00:04:46
opportunities, then we're going to be ultra successful.
00:04:48
So I totally understand where you're coming from.
00:04:51
It's, it's a, it's something that I think you know is getting
00:04:56
better, you know, than it was, i would say, 10 years ago, but
00:05:00
there still certainly is.
00:05:01
You know some of those individuals out there,
00:05:03
unfortunately.
00:05:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's, you know, and it sucks too right, because
00:05:10
, as as someone that was trying to get into just IT overall,
00:05:15
right right out of college, you know I'm trying to find a job.
00:05:19
I got student loans They're going to kick in soon, you know
00:05:22
and the easiest way for me to do it is through a recruiter, and
00:05:25
I don't know anything about recruiting Like I have no clue.
00:05:30
You know, luckily, or well, i guess, yeah, because my first
00:05:38
interaction with a recruiter was actually pretty negative.
00:05:41
The guy you could tell that he had certain like quotas to make
00:05:49
and he had certain things that he had to meet on his end that
00:05:53
he wasn't telling me that you know like pay, for instance,
00:05:57
right, i requested one you know pay amount and then he submitted
00:06:03
me like way lower or something like that, like it was totally
00:06:06
different.
00:06:06
It came back at a totally different level.
00:06:08
He's like, oh, you got the job, but it's like considerably less
00:06:12
than what you wanted and I felt almost like pressured into
00:06:16
taking it.
00:06:17
You know, like that was the most insane part.
00:06:19
I felt extremely pressured into taking it, like, oh, i just did
00:06:23
all this work for you on the back end, you know like, and I'm
00:06:26
the type of person that's like you know, you do work for me,
00:06:29
i'm going to work for you, right ?
00:06:30
So, like now, i feel, you know, maybe overly invested in this
00:06:35
situation, and it's like man, what do I do here?
00:06:39
Speaker 2: And I'm not surprised to hear that at all, joe,
00:06:41
because I've heard stories like that before.
00:06:44
You know what I always say and the approach I always take is,
00:06:50
as a recruiting agency right, our job is to make sure that we
00:06:56
are finding the best opportunity , like.
00:06:58
I want you, joe, your experience to be that the
00:07:02
recruiter that you're working with should feel like your agent
00:07:05
, just like an athlete or a entertainer or whatever would
00:07:08
have an agent.
00:07:09
Right, i want you to feel like they have your best interests at
00:07:13
heart, because the better you do and the more you advance your
00:07:15
career and the stronger the relationship you're able to
00:07:17
build over time, the better it is for both sides, right.
00:07:21
So I don't ever want anybody to take a job.
00:07:25
That's not a great job for them .
00:07:26
There's just no reason to, especially if you're in security
00:07:29
.
00:07:29
You have the pick of the litter once you're in and established.
00:07:32
If you're good at what you do in security, you're going to
00:07:36
always be able to find a job, always.
00:07:38
That's not changing anytime probably not in our lifetimes,
00:07:41
right?
00:07:41
Yeah, so I think you know.
00:07:44
What I always tell is I want to make sure you have the best and
00:07:49
all information you need and all the unknowns are eliminated
00:07:52
for you to make the best decision for yourself and for
00:07:54
your family.
00:07:55
That is what I truly care about , and whether that means you
00:07:59
take the job that I found you or my recruiting partner found you
00:08:02
or not, it doesn't matter.
00:08:04
I want you to make sure you're in the right position, and my
00:08:07
job is to make sure you have all the information you need to do
00:08:10
so.
00:08:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a I mean , it's a refreshing perspective
00:08:18
that you take.
00:08:19
you know, on the field, to be honest, you know, like,
00:08:24
typically I don't go through recruiters anymore, right, like
00:08:27
companies typically just reach out to me.
00:08:28
Yeah, if I was in the situation you know, and I've told you
00:08:33
this before if I was in the situation where I needed a
00:08:35
recruiter or you know, whatever it might be like I'm going to
00:08:39
you or one other person and or one other person you know and
00:08:44
that's out of that's out of everyone that pings me, it's you
00:08:49
know like, it's like you know you guys are the only two people
00:08:52
that I even refer people to.
00:08:54
you know, because you and this other person, you're just
00:09:03
straight up good people, straight shooters.
00:09:05
you're going to tell me the truth every single time, no
00:09:08
matter what it is good or bad.
00:09:11
you're going to give me guidance.
00:09:12
I mean, i've reached out to you before before.
00:09:14
I like started a job at a company that I didn't get
00:09:17
through you And I was like Hey, do you know anything about this
00:09:19
company?
00:09:20
Do you know anything about this team?
00:09:21
Do you know anything about this hiring manager?
00:09:24
You know, because, from my point of view, you know I want
00:09:28
to make the best decision possible.
00:09:29
I go into, you know, going like working for companies with the
00:09:36
mentality of okay, can I work there for five years?
00:09:39
Do I see myself there in five years?
00:09:41
If not, it's probably not a fit .
00:09:43
You know, like just plain and simple, right, and so I try to
00:09:47
do all the research possible that I can.
00:09:49
Of course, you know, is there is there a certain point in
00:09:55
someone's career that you feel is very valuable to have a
00:09:59
recruiter, or can people use recruiters throughout their
00:10:03
entire career?
00:10:04
Is that valuable?
00:10:05
What's the trade-offs?
00:10:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely So.
00:10:09
I think there's.
00:10:10
I would say there's different phases right Of how you'd want
00:10:14
to interact and how you'd want to work with a recruiter.
00:10:17
It's possible as a college grad or even a master's grad right
00:10:23
to to partner with a recruiter.
00:10:26
The reality is, though, that the majority of organizations do an
00:10:30
okay job at hiring entry-level candidates, and they don't want
00:10:34
to pay agency a fee right in order to find those candidates
00:10:38
right, Because they're basically investing in somebody they know
00:10:41
is wrong, So they're not getting a whole lot of previous
00:10:44
experience.
00:10:45
They're not really necessarily going to get someone, most
00:10:47
likely who's going to hit the ground running.
00:10:49
They're going to have to teach them, invest in them, all those
00:10:51
things.
00:10:51
So they don't want to pay an extra you know percentage on top
00:10:54
of hiring that person right to find them.
00:10:56
So I would say that the majority of the roles that we
00:10:59
see and we get with our organization are kind of, at
00:11:03
that, like three to eight years of experience range.
00:11:07
Right, It's a, it's a range.
00:11:10
Think about this logically right, So you have, say, a
00:11:13
security team, right, And on your security team you're
00:11:15
probably going to have a manager , some sort of leader, right,
00:11:19
You might have like a lead, you know, technical architect or
00:11:21
whatever, but then you need, like the vast majority of that
00:11:24
squad, to be engineers, administrators, the people that
00:11:27
are actually executing on the work.
00:11:29
Right, That's your three to eight year bucket Now it might
00:11:33
be, for some people a little bit less than that, for some people
00:11:35
a little bit more than that, but, like, that is the vast
00:11:38
majority of what a technical team is going to need to be able
00:11:41
to execute.
00:11:42
And then you might have, you know, a junior green person that
00:11:45
you're developing and building it, bringing up, but you don't
00:11:48
want to have four or five people that you have to hand hold
00:11:50
along the way, right?
00:11:51
So that's the population in which organizations really need
00:11:55
And, because it's the most prevalent, it's the toughest to
00:11:57
find right.
00:11:58
So I'd say, right around that range is where you want to try
00:12:02
to lock yourself in and start building a relationship with a
00:12:05
good one, or maybe two recruiters, right?
00:12:07
People that you know.
00:12:08
The first time you chat with them.
00:12:10
They may not have a job, but guess what?
00:12:12
they follow up with you, right?
00:12:13
Because they realize that you're a great candidate and
00:12:15
somebody that they want to build a relationship with.
00:12:17
And they want to try to find something that's right.
00:12:19
For If, the first time you talk to somebody, they ask you one
00:12:23
or two questions about yourself and then try to sell you on a
00:12:26
role that is, you know, not relevant to you, probably not
00:12:29
somebody that's worth, you know, maintaining a relationship with
00:12:31
right, but if you find somebody who's great at what they do,
00:12:35
they're going to provide you access to a lot of opportunities
00:12:39
.
00:12:39
And they're going to also and you, you, you mentioned this
00:12:42
right, you know you call it the backdoor dealings They're going
00:12:45
to be able to get your information directly in front of
00:12:48
hiring Right.
00:12:49
Like that's the value that you get.
00:12:51
You could go apply on LinkedIn and be a part of, you know, the
00:12:55
40, 50, sometimes 100 other applicants, or you could be one
00:12:59
of one or two individuals that that recruiting agency is going
00:13:03
to present to that hiring manager.
00:13:04
So to me, that's a huge value, right.
00:13:06
That can be added.
00:13:08
Once you get past that like eight, nine, ten year range,
00:13:12
especially if you're in leadership, then it starts to
00:13:15
kind of shift a little bit to more of what I would consider to
00:13:18
be executive search, right, and that executive search is going
00:13:22
to be now we're starting to look for, you know, senior directors
00:13:26
, vps, cisos, right, those types of individuals, and that is
00:13:31
much more of a, i would say, a search that organizations are
00:13:36
going to basically operate like that client's HR department.
00:13:42
For that individual search for what might be, you know, one
00:13:46
month to six months right, depending on what it is.
00:13:49
So while it's okay and you could still maintain a
00:13:52
relationship with a recruiter at that point, you're probably
00:13:55
much more likely to have somebody reach out to you who's
00:13:58
working on a specific role at that point, because there's few
00:14:01
and far between jobs and there's not as many you know really
00:14:05
really capable leaders that can fill those positions as there
00:14:09
are kind of across the board.
00:14:09
So hopefully that gives you just a little bit of kind of the
00:14:13
continuum across from where that's at Now.
00:14:15
Does that mean that somebody that's a 20 year vet, that's
00:14:17
still an engineer can't work with a recruiter?
00:14:19
Absolutely not.
00:14:19
Like that's totally fine.
00:14:20
You can certainly continue to partner with a recruiter to
00:14:24
advance your career and find new opportunities.
00:14:25
But I would say kind of that continuum is probably the
00:14:29
standard of what we typically see.
00:14:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense.
00:14:33
You know when, when, when I think of like back backroom
00:14:37
dealings, right, like I remember the credit bureau that I was
00:14:41
working at.
00:14:42
I mean, you were there just as much as me and I was in the
00:14:45
office every day.
00:14:45
You know, you were, you would, i had that.
00:14:49
That was the craziest part.
00:14:51
I was like what?
00:14:53
This guy has a badge, does he work here?
00:14:58
You know it's, it was funny.
00:15:03
but you know, i kind of got to see a lot of that, especially
00:15:07
like with my manager you know that you were working with.
00:15:10
He did a huge amount of that right.
00:15:12
So like he had trusted people and if those trusted people
00:15:17
referred him someone, it was like automatic.
00:15:19
you know, okay, we're going to fast track him, i'm going to
00:15:21
talk to him.
00:15:21
It's going to be a light discussion, you know, just let's
00:15:26
just meet the HR requirements and get him in the door Right.
00:15:28
That was kind of that whole mentality And I've personally
00:15:34
experienced that a couple of times and it's always it's
00:15:35
always very interesting, right, like seeing where people you
00:15:40
know find out who you know and things like that.
00:15:44
You know, i tell people all the time that at least the security
00:15:47
community in Chicago is very tight-knit right.
00:15:48
Like all the CISOs know each other, like every single one of
00:15:51
them know each other.
00:15:52
And so when you're going to get onto an interview with a CISO
00:15:59
typically like the final round of your interviews if you're an
00:16:02
engineer, a more senior engineer like they all talk to each
00:16:04
other And they all bring to each other like, oh, i wonder if I
00:16:09
can offer him more money than you.
00:16:11
You know like they all talk trash to each other.
00:16:14
They all like mess with each other, like, oh, i just took Joe
00:16:17
from you, you know good luck.
00:16:19
Like I felt like my CISO at my last job, i felt like my CISO
00:16:24
knew the day that I had accepted the offer Right.
00:16:28
I felt like he knew that And I didn't tell him it was several
00:16:32
weeks, you know just by how he was treating me.
00:16:34
And then, after I start my currency.
00:16:37
so I was like, oh yeah, i know him very well.
00:16:39
You know I was giving him shit.
00:16:41
when I pulled you I was like, oh my God, you know, like it's
00:16:45
that sort of stuff that goes on, that, from my point of view,
00:16:48
you never really see Right.
00:16:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, and that's that doesn't surprise me
00:16:53
at all, especially in these pockets.
00:16:56
Right Of technology, right, you have security, you have cloud,
00:16:59
you have app dev, you have, you know, product and project
00:17:02
management, a lot of those senior leaders across the board,
00:17:05
especially in a tight net market.
00:17:07
They all know each other.
00:17:08
Now what's going to be interesting to see is over the
00:17:12
span of the next, you know, three to five years, as there's
00:17:16
been an increased appetite for remote workers And, and even at
00:17:21
the executive level, not as much as you know, at the engineering
00:17:25
and kind of individual contributor level, will those,
00:17:31
will those kind of circles like kind of mesh across from
00:17:34
geographical regions, right, like, and and it already does,
00:17:37
you already see it happen across industries, right, so you know,
00:17:40
say, for instance, you know credit bureaus, right, like, not
00:17:44
a lot of them out there.
00:17:44
I'm sure the CISOs from each of those, regardless of where they
00:17:48
are, know of each other or know each other right?
00:17:50
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:17:51
Speaker 2: And same thing in healthcare.
00:17:52
Same thing, right.
00:17:53
So now is you know, the individual markets kind of mesh
00:17:57
across with kind of remote work and be interesting to see kind
00:18:00
of how that dynamic plays out over time.
00:18:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a really good point that you bring
00:18:08
up.
00:18:08
But you know to kind of circle back to recruiters.
00:18:13
You know you mentioned a successful recruiter being
00:18:17
someone that you know they want to get to know you more than
00:18:21
anything else you know, and that that was probably the one thing
00:18:24
that I always appreciated with you.
00:18:26
I felt like I was just talking to someone that you know,
00:18:29
wanting to be friends just straight up, just wanting to get
00:18:31
to know me, right, and it made me more open to you, and the
00:18:35
people that were on your team had that same mentality, they
00:18:38
had that same kind of process as well, and so whenever you guys
00:18:43
would call, i would always pick up the phone like no matter what
00:18:46
I'm doing, you know, even if I'm busy at the time, like I'll
00:18:48
text you and be like Hey, i'm busy, i'll call you in 30
00:18:50
minutes, something like that.
00:18:51
Right, that's the sort of relationship that I always
00:18:57
appreciated more than anything else, because it builds that
00:19:01
trust, it builds that rapport, without you having to be like,
00:19:04
oh, i got this great role, you know, and constantly pitching me
00:19:08
roles.
00:19:09
It's like, man, we're already in security, we're already being
00:19:13
pitched nonstop, right, correct , you don't need to be pitched
00:19:16
even more.
00:19:17
You know like, let's build something.
00:19:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, it goes back to what I said earlier.
00:19:23
right, you can tell very early on if somebody has a genuine
00:19:28
investment and interest in being a value add to you or if
00:19:32
they're trying to make you a value add to them.
00:19:34
Right, it's very easy to tell, right?
00:19:37
So, you know, i've always the teams that I've always worked
00:19:41
with, i've always preached, like look, get to know your people.
00:19:44
Right, resumes, linkedin, all that stuff is out there, you
00:19:48
know.
00:19:48
You know what's not out there, what's most important to Joe in
00:19:52
his next job, what's the thing about his job right now that if
00:19:56
he could change, he would change it right, what would it look
00:19:59
like for him to get into his ideal situation?
00:20:01
right, those are the things that are not on your resume,
00:20:04
they're not on your LinkedIn, but those are the most important
00:20:07
things and the things that matter most to you.
00:20:09
So they need to matter to whoever you're working with as a
00:20:12
recruiting partner, because then, joe, i can call you and I
00:20:16
can say hey, joe, remember, you know, eight months ago or
00:20:19
whatever it was, we were having lunch and you told me, like, man
00:20:21
, i'd really love to find an opportunity where and I remember
00:20:25
you saying this in the past like where I can get into cloud
00:20:28
security engineering, like I really want to get into the
00:20:30
cloud, like it's the future of all technology.
00:20:33
I mean, this is we're talking six, seven years ago now.
00:20:35
Speaker 1: Right, and I remember eventually, right, you found a
00:20:40
role that you know wasn't with me, but you found a role that
00:20:43
got you into that right.
00:20:44
Speaker 2: So if I could come back to you and I could say hey,
00:20:46
joe, look, i have a great opportunity to one of my clients
00:20:48
guess what?
00:20:49
It's a cloud security engineering role.
00:20:50
It's not just a standard run-of-the-mill engineering that
00:20:53
matches the skills that are on your resume.
00:20:55
It actually is something that is taking you where you want to
00:20:59
go, your next step in your career, to advance, right.
00:21:02
So, like, that's the most important thing, If a recruiter
00:21:06
is not asking you, hey, what do you want?
00:21:08
What are you looking for?
00:21:10
You know, yeah, your skills that you have right now are
00:21:13
important, but what's more important is what are your goals
00:21:15
?
00:21:15
Like, where do you want to take your career?
00:21:17
Where do you want to go?
00:21:17
That is where they can provide value to you because they can
00:21:20
scan the market and find the right opportunity for you at the
00:21:24
point in the career your career of where you're at.
00:21:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really good point.
00:21:28
You know you bring up something really interesting and I didn't
00:21:37
think about it.
00:21:38
You know at the time, right where I was in a situation where
00:21:42
I hated working on the technology that I worked on.
00:21:45
Is that the credit bureau?
00:21:47
So you know the technology right.
00:21:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, we won't say it .
00:21:51
Speaker 1: No, i don't want the lawsuit.
00:21:52
But you know, to this day, i avoid places that have that tech
00:21:59
And all I wanted was to get into cloud security at that time
00:22:06
, right, that was my only goal.
00:22:09
But the only thing that I would get calls for was for this tool
00:22:15
because it was in high demand.
00:22:17
Not many people had experience with it.
00:22:19
If you were someone that knew how to log into it, right like
00:22:23
people were giving you a call like, oh, you want to deploy
00:22:26
this thing, it's like dude, that is the last thing that I want
00:22:30
to do.
00:22:31
But you know, i never got that from you, and the people that I
00:22:36
never got that from is the people that I still talk to
00:22:38
today, because it's like you're not hearing me.
00:22:41
I don't want to work with this technology.
00:22:44
I want to go a different direction.
00:22:46
Speaker 2: But, joe, i can get you $5 more an hour, don't you
00:22:49
want to take?
00:22:49
it Like oh it's just, i understand, i feel you.
00:22:55
It's got to be tough.
00:22:57
Speaker 1: I mean, when I started consulting, i mean
00:23:01
people would offer me insane amounts of money like student
00:23:04
loan, paying off money right, to be a consultant for them on
00:23:08
this tool And I, literally I hated the tool so much that I
00:23:14
accepted my student loans over working with that tool.
00:23:18
Okay, like, that is, that's how bad it was.
00:23:22
It's just, it's crazy, you know , like, but to take it back?
00:23:29
right, let's say I do want to jump into cloud security?
00:23:34
right, let's take it back six, seven years ago.
00:23:35
right, i wanted to jump into cloud security.
00:23:37
I didn't have any cloud experience.
00:23:40
Well, this is kind of where the recruiter comes in, at least in
00:23:42
my experience And they're able to fill that gap of you know
00:23:46
what, was it 30, maybe 50% of what you're missing on your
00:23:51
resume.
00:23:51
they can step in and fill it and be like, hey look, he has
00:23:54
deployed these technologies all over the place, he understands
00:23:58
the fundamentals of it.
00:23:59
you know, like you can.
00:24:01
you can talk to hiring managers in ways that you know.
00:24:05
honestly, i can't right, because I'm kind of locked into
00:24:10
the question that they ask And if I start rambling on an
00:24:15
interview, it may get into my head like, oh, i'm talking too
00:24:17
much or I'm talking too little, i'm not going into enough detail
00:24:22
.
00:24:22
things like that.
00:24:22
You kind of fill in that gap, which I've always found to be
00:24:28
really helpful, and whenever I'm looking to kind of make that
00:24:32
change, make that jump in my career, like I need someone to
00:24:34
fill that gap in those backroom dealings right, that's how I
00:24:40
call them.
00:24:40
Yeah, right, yeah.
00:24:44
Speaker 2: And I think for sure and I mentioned this a little
00:24:46
bit earlier one of the major benefits that you should get
00:24:49
from having a recruiting partner is access to these hiring
00:24:51
leaders, right, and that access is in the form of and you're
00:24:55
talking all about it, right If I have a profile like yours,
00:25:00
right, and I'm not just going off a resume, i'm going off the
00:25:03
relationship we've built, i'm going off the conversations that
00:25:06
I've had with your peers or your leaders or whatever about,
00:25:10
hey, this is a really great resource.
00:25:11
Whatever it might be, i can get on the phone, or it used to be
00:25:17
sitting in front of much more than so.
00:25:19
Now it's in this type of capacity, right, virtually than
00:25:22
it was three plus years ago, but I can sit down with that hiring
00:25:26
manager and I can say, hey, look, i know Joe has minimal
00:25:30
experience in X, right, but I promise you, based on what I've
00:25:34
heard from his manager or whatever, he can certainly make
00:25:38
up for it, and he's actually in the process right now of getting
00:25:41
a cert.
00:25:41
He's getting a cloud security certification, right, or
00:25:44
something like that right, i think this individual is worth
00:25:47
the conversation, right, and that's in addition to helping to
00:25:52
set you up for success as you go through that process, right?
00:25:55
What the true value you should get out of me is I can get you
00:25:59
in front of that hiring leader, Whereas otherwise, if you just
00:26:03
sent your resume in, if it's lacking a lot of those things,
00:26:06
you're most likely not gonna get a conversation with that hiring
00:26:09
leader, right?
00:26:10
And then it's on you, right, i can help with the, get you set
00:26:13
there and land the foundation right.
00:26:15
But I know if I could put you, joe, in front of any of the
00:26:18
hiring leaders I work with, i know you're gonna close the deal
00:26:21
, so I'm not worried about that.
00:26:23
But yeah, that is, it's a huge, huge plus.
00:26:26
And organizations once again, i mentioned this at the beginning
00:26:29
when I was talking about entry-level candidates they're
00:26:34
not in the business of paying a premium for individuals that
00:26:37
aren't gonna come in and probably hit the ground running.
00:26:39
But, like I said, if you can share some of the ancillary
00:26:43
things and hey, maybe it doesn't look like he has an extreme
00:26:47
amount of this on his resume, but these are the steps and
00:26:50
things that he's going through.
00:26:51
He's got a home lab, he's got this.
00:26:53
whatever The guy really loves tech and you know he really
00:26:56
wants to get into this, he'll be a great investment for you,
00:26:59
right.
00:26:59
And that's where you can kind of get around some of those, you
00:27:02
know, i guess, gaps in your experience.
00:27:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
00:27:08
You know I always tell people that.
00:27:11
You know my goal when I was trying to get into security
00:27:16
overall right, was make myself as competitive as possible.
00:27:21
You know, check as many of the boxes right off the bat as many
00:27:25
as I can, because I want as few questions about you know, my
00:27:30
skill level, about you know, whatever it might be on a
00:27:34
technical basis, i want as few questions of that as possible
00:27:38
because it should be more of a discussion around.
00:27:41
You know, a personality fit And like for my latest role.
00:27:45
You know it was exactly that right.
00:27:48
Like I had one phone call with the CISO, my current CISO and
00:27:53
he's like oh, okay, we're going to fast track.
00:27:54
You Like there's one more call.
00:27:56
There's typically like five more calls, but there's only one
00:27:59
more.
00:27:59
It's going to be with the architect And I get on the call.
00:28:03
I expect it to be like extremely technical.
00:28:05
You know, because this is an architect, he probably wants to
00:28:07
grill me on some things.
00:28:09
He has like one technical question And I was like what's
00:28:14
the catch?
00:28:15
Because this is really easy.
00:28:18
You know, like this is a really easy question.
00:28:19
Like where are you going with this?
00:28:21
And he goes no, i just want to make sure that you know what
00:28:23
this tech is Like.
00:28:24
Yeah, i know what the tech is Like.
00:28:26
I've deployed it, you know, i've done it, you know before
00:28:28
and everything like that.
00:28:29
Right, it's just, it's about filling as many holes, as many
00:28:36
gaps, as you possibly can, and a recruiter can absolutely do
00:28:38
that.
00:28:39
You know, it's a shame that recruiters get such bad
00:28:45
reputations, you know, and you got to like really put work into
00:28:48
finding quality recruiters like yourself, you know.
00:28:53
Speaker 2: A reputation doesn't come from nowhere, Joe.
00:28:55
There's a reason why there's the reputation, right, and I do
00:28:58
think, like I said, i do think the industry has gotten better
00:29:02
over time.
00:29:03
It's a lot less used car salesman than it was 10 years
00:29:07
ago, but there is.
00:29:10
You know, there's good and bad ones out there, like anything,
00:29:12
right, there's good and bad security engineers out there,
00:29:15
right, you have to put the work in to find really good security
00:29:17
engineers, right?
00:29:18
Just the same way you have to do in the recruiting space.
00:29:20
So, like I said and I mentioned this a little bit earlier but
00:29:24
my advice would be you know, if the recruiter tries to pitch you
00:29:29
a job that is not a fit for you in the first call, then cut
00:29:32
ties right away.
00:29:34
If they tell you that they don't have anything for you and then
00:29:37
at some point they follow up, that's a really good sign, right
00:29:39
?
00:29:39
That's a really good sign, especially if they took time on
00:29:42
the front end to get to know your wants, your needs, what
00:29:45
you're looking for those types of things I think that's the
00:29:48
best rule of thumb is is how much time are they spending
00:29:50
asking about you And not just hey, do you have this skill, do
00:29:53
you have this skill?
00:29:54
But what do you want to do?
00:29:55
Where do you want to go.
00:29:56
What do you want your next job to look like?
00:29:58
That's a really good sign, and probably somebody that you can
00:30:00
spend some time building a long-term relationship with.
00:30:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's actually a couple that you know.
00:30:06
Now that you say it like that, it just comes to mind, right.
00:30:09
There's a couple that I've probably been talking to for
00:30:12
maybe five years, right, and every six months they just reach
00:30:17
out to see how I'm doing And they, you know, it sounds like,
00:30:22
you know, we never, like stopped talking.
00:30:24
You know they're like, they spend, you know, 20 of the 30
00:30:27
minutes catching up, you know, and then, like the last time is
00:30:30
like, hey, like I don't have anything for you right now, but
00:30:34
you know, if something comes up, you know I'll reach out.
00:30:37
And I always appreciate that a whole lot more than people just
00:30:42
straight up reaching out and be like hey, i have this role, you
00:30:45
know.
00:30:45
That doesn't tell me anything about you?
00:30:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know exactly, Yep, not totally.
00:30:51
Speaker 1: So, john, you know, if you had to recommend, you
00:30:56
know, maybe a skill set of field of expertise that people should
00:31:02
go into and try to start to pivot into, maybe either to get
00:31:06
into tech or to have a successful career in tech what
00:31:11
do you think that that would be?
00:31:12
Because you're seeing it from a very different perspective.
00:31:14
Right, these roles open up.
00:31:16
Probably a lot of them are requiring the same sort of skill
00:31:20
sets, same kind of tool experience and whatnot.
00:31:22
What are those things And how can you know my listeners kind
00:31:28
of better prepare themselves for those things?
00:31:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I mean, obviously the big thing that has
00:31:36
been going on for the last few years is anything that's you
00:31:39
know software defined right, anything that is you know
00:31:43
security as a service, those types of things right, anything
00:31:46
that you can automate a lot of those manual tasks.
00:31:48
It's becoming more and more prevalent.
00:31:51
It started, you know, on the infrastructure side.
00:31:55
It's probably started on the software side, then it shifted
00:31:58
over to the infrastructure side and then it's expanded into the
00:32:01
security side.
00:32:02
Another thing that obviously is such a huge piece is anything
00:32:08
tied around kind of data and data security.
00:32:11
I mean, just, you know, open up the Wall Street Journal, you
00:32:15
know, or whatever it is that you read right, there's an article
00:32:18
every single day around.
00:32:19
You know, what is the government doing looking at data
00:32:23
?
00:32:23
Are there going to be increased regulations?
00:32:24
I mean you have a lot.
00:32:26
You know different states that have different standards.
00:32:30
If you can really become strong and somebody that can make sure
00:32:34
an organization's data is protected, you know that is of
00:32:39
utmost importance, and I'm probably not saying anything
00:32:41
that's going to be a shock to anybody, right?
00:32:43
You know the cloud security was the buzz years ago.
00:32:48
Now it's a standard.
00:32:49
I mean every organization is operating the cloud in some
00:32:52
capacity, right?
00:32:53
So I would say you know anything that you can get.
00:32:57
If you can increase your skills from an automation standpoint,
00:33:00
right.
00:33:01
Whether that's you know utilizing something like you
00:33:04
know Python or you know Ansible, more on the infrastructure side
00:33:08
, but it does overlay a little bit Anything from an automation
00:33:11
around security.
00:33:12
Taking away human error, taking away manual tasks, those types
00:33:16
of things.
00:33:16
It's going to make you incredibly marketable to
00:33:20
organizations, right?
00:33:21
Everybody cares so much about automation because it increases
00:33:25
accuracy and it decreases time, right?
00:33:27
So, and then you know just really getting involved in
00:33:32
anything around data security, whether that's data privacy,
00:33:35
data governance.
00:33:35
It's not as much of the technical hands-on engineering
00:33:39
maybe as you can get in, you know threatened vulnerability
00:33:42
management or things like that.
00:33:44
But like even IAM, you know, and those types of things are,
00:33:49
you're never going to be.
00:33:50
Let's, let me just put it this way In the next 15, 20 years
00:33:54
you're going to have absolute demand for your skillset.
00:33:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
00:33:59
You know, it's funny when you bring up like data security.
00:34:04
I have a friend that somehow found his way into IT, right
00:34:10
Like he was, like you know, the smartest person in his school,
00:34:13
whatnot Like one of those really smart, like bioengineering or
00:34:18
chemical engineering degrees, one of those extremely hard
00:34:22
degrees that I didn't even consider in college, You know.
00:34:29
And he, you know, was doing a lot of big data work, right, and
00:34:33
he was working on how to secure you know, petabytes of data
00:34:37
right, and figuring out what the you know what was vulnerable in
00:34:42
the data, what was sensitive, what he should be paying
00:34:44
attention to, how to best secure it so that it could be, you
00:34:47
know, rapidly accessed.
00:34:49
But that wasn't like his you know, main job function.
00:34:52
That was almost like a side project for him at work And
00:34:56
there was no one dedicated to it except for him.
00:34:59
And he asked me he's like, you know, should I get into this
00:35:02
field?
00:35:02
It seems like it might be a little, a little hot, you know,
00:35:07
like all I saw was dollar signs.
00:35:09
Speaker 2: Just a little hot, This guy.
00:35:12
Speaker 1: This guy has no clue.
00:35:13
Like Google will pay you, you know, half a million dollars to
00:35:16
do that.
00:35:17
Like they'll pay you half a million salary with millions in
00:35:21
stock.
00:35:21
Like, just to do that.
00:35:23
Speaker 2: Like yeah, you probably get into this For sure.
00:35:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and it's wild, you know, and some of the
00:35:30
recommendations that I tell people, you know I've said it
00:35:34
before definitely, you know, big data security is one of them.
00:35:38
Another one I would say is even like AI security, you know,
00:35:43
because we're seeing a lot of different like AI's, you know,
00:35:45
pop up right, that seem to be very smart, seem to be able to,
00:35:52
you know, deduct things and reason things and whatnot, and
00:35:57
it's only going to get more.
00:35:59
It's only going to get more intense, right, like there's
00:36:02
only going to be more AI's because we've kind of already
00:36:07
opened like Pandora's box with it, Like we're not putting that
00:36:10
thing away, you know at all, right, yeah.
00:36:13
Speaker 2: And so the interesting thing, though, is
00:36:14
like it's also almost, in some ways it's a brand new field,
00:36:20
right?
00:36:20
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:36:21
Speaker 2: Because it's not clearly defined yet.
00:36:23
What is AI security and what is Intel?
00:36:26
right, there's so many different facets to it.
00:36:30
Right, you talk about, you know , a being right in some ways
00:36:37
that you need to try to control.
00:36:38
Right, but it's got its own mind.
00:36:40
It's got access to things that the human brain can't even, you
00:36:45
know, begin to fathom, right, so so how do you secure something
00:36:49
like that?
00:36:50
right, it's going to be very interesting and obviously
00:36:54
there's been a lot of talk of a lot of the big tech leaders and
00:36:57
stuff about hey, we got to slow down before, you know, we run
00:37:00
into some problems with this, because this could become a
00:37:03
problem and spiral out of control really quickly.
00:37:05
So it's just it's very interesting to think about.
00:37:09
Like, it's something that we're all talking about, but it's not
00:37:13
yet defined what it exactly meets.
00:37:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it'll even be.
00:37:19
it'll get to a point where you see other nation state actors or
00:37:24
other hacking groups that are using AI in ways that you
00:37:29
wouldn't have expected.
00:37:31
Speaker 2: It's scary.
00:37:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, the reason why I say that is because maybe 10
00:37:38
years ago at this point, maybe eight years or 10 years ago at
00:37:40
this point, google had some version of AI running on two
00:37:46
servers and those two servers could only talk to each other.
00:37:49
They weren't able to talk to anything else.
00:37:50
That was literally the only thing.
00:37:53
These two servers figured out at some point in time that the
00:37:58
Google engineers were able to see everything that they were
00:38:01
discussing between each other.
00:38:03
They went and created their own encryption protocol, something
00:38:08
that Google has never seen before.
00:38:09
no one has ever seen before.
00:38:11
They started communicating over that encryption protocol.
00:38:14
Google was like okay, well, we'll break it.
00:38:16
There's no way that they could have created something that we
00:38:19
couldn't break.
00:38:19
They couldn't break it.
00:38:22
Their only solution was to power off the servers and drill
00:38:25
holes into them so that it was unrecoverable.
00:38:27
It's so excitingly terrifying.
00:38:31
Speaker 2: It's so excitingly terrifying to hear that.
00:38:34
Speaker 1: If you want to dive into the military aspect of it.
00:38:38
This is like old, new, new, new , new, new news.
00:38:39
But DARPA years ago they built an AI that had the sole purpose
00:38:46
of attacking other servers.
00:38:48
Before those other AI servers could attack back, they would
00:38:53
have to patch and adjust their own security automatically with
00:38:58
all through AI to prevent that attack from penetrating them.
00:39:03
They learned from the attacks that actually got through and
00:39:07
adjusted and modified things, and they learned a whole lot
00:39:10
about different security techniques just from watching
00:39:13
these two computers go at each other.
00:39:16
It's like AI security to me is something that it's like take
00:39:25
that situation and then build guardrails around it.
00:39:28
Somehow.
00:39:30
You have to have limits within these AIs When it gets very
00:39:33
complex.
00:39:34
When you attach an AI to the internet and it has access to
00:39:38
all of the knowledge on the internet, how quickly is it
00:39:42
going to go through that thing?
00:39:42
and then you want to tell it to not do that.
00:39:45
Speaker 2: It's like how do you put guardrails around something
00:39:47
that doesn't necessarily have a very clearly defined end.
00:39:50
It's going to be a very, very interesting thing to track.
00:39:58
Obviously, i would say over the next five to 10 years, but
00:40:02
we're probably talking the next six to 12 months.
00:40:07
Speaker 1: That's the scary part .
00:40:08
Some people say like 12 months, some say like five years.
00:40:13
You think about it.
00:40:15
Both options are not a lot of time.
00:40:17
It's not a lot.
00:40:19
I think I've talked to one or two people that one on the
00:40:25
podcast and one off the podcast that even understand what
00:40:28
quantum security is.
00:40:31
Speaker 2: I'm not one of them.
00:40:34
Speaker 1: Both times those guys were talking miles above my
00:40:37
head.
00:40:37
I can imagine.
00:40:41
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:40:42
Speaker 1: Absolutely Well, john , i really appreciate you coming
00:40:45
on.
00:40:45
It's always a pleasure talking with you and whatnot.
00:40:48
Why don't you tell my audience where they could find you and
00:40:53
where they could find your company, and maybe just give
00:40:57
them that information so that they can reach out if they want
00:41:00
to?
00:41:00
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure.
00:41:01
The company that I work for is called Birchworks.
00:41:05
We do talent solutions across all different kinds of
00:41:10
recruiting, as well as a lot of market and industry research on
00:41:14
the market in the data and technology space, including
00:41:19
infrastructure security and data like data analytics and data
00:41:24
science.
00:41:25
Please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn.
00:41:29
I would love to have a conversation, even if it's just
00:41:33
something like this job where it's just hey, i want to learn a
00:41:36
little bit more about the industry and how I can utilize
00:41:39
it.
00:41:39
Like I said, and I'll continue to echo this sentiment, my job
00:41:44
is to go out there and help people succeed, help people fill
00:41:49
the gaps that they have.
00:41:49
If that leads to business for me, great.
00:41:53
If not, i feel great about just being able to be a resource for
00:41:57
someone.
00:41:57
Thanks again, joe, for inviting me on.
00:41:59
I had a lot of fun.
00:42:00
It's always great chatting with you and looking forward to
00:42:04
grabbing lunch next time in Chicago.
00:42:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely Looking forward to it.
00:42:08
Thanks everyone.
00:42:09
I hope you enjoyed this episode .
Speaker 1: How's it going, john?
00:00:00
It's been a while since since we last talked.
00:00:04
I mean, I think the last time that we talked it might have
00:00:07
been for lunch back in October.
00:00:10
So it's great to see you again.
00:00:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, you were just about to head over to Germany, i
00:00:14
think for the NFL game.
00:00:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one last going away party for me before I
00:00:19
had the kid.
00:00:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely Congratulations again.
00:00:23
That's awesome.
00:00:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely It's .
00:00:26
It's a game changer, that's for sure, as as I'm learning the
00:00:31
hard way, yeah my wife and I are kind of right on that edge of.
00:00:35
Speaker 2: that's part of the reason why we we moved back, so
00:00:38
I'm not probably not too far behind you.
00:00:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, man, like it
00:00:45
changes so frequently like, right, when you get used to you
00:00:50
know, one flow or one like schedule type thing, it changes
00:00:55
and it's like, oh, i can't put her in the swing without you
00:01:00
know the seat belt on because she decided to like kick her way
00:01:04
out and an effort to like get out, you know, and have fun.
00:01:07
This is, it's interesting for sure.
00:01:10
But you know, john, i start everyone off with getting their
00:01:15
background.
00:01:16
You know what's your, what's your background?
00:01:18
How did you start to get into recruiting?
00:01:23
You're the first recruiter I've ever had on the podcast, but I
00:01:26
think it's a valuable perspective because there's a
00:01:29
lot of bad recruiters out there that give recruiters a really
00:01:33
bad name that you know I've had to steer people away from and,
00:01:38
you know, discuss what it's like with them and whatnot.
00:01:41
Right, and I think this is an important conversation because
00:01:47
there's a good amount of my audience that you know they're
00:01:50
looking to get into security, they're looking to get into IT,
00:01:53
they're trying to potentially even make a career change And
00:01:58
recruiters can absolutely help them make that jump.
00:02:00
You know it's like recruiters are in on the, on the, i guess,
00:02:05
like the back room deals, right, the back room conversations and
00:02:08
they can speak on your behalf in ways that we're not able to
00:02:13
right, we're not, maybe we're not even skilled enough to.
00:02:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely.
00:02:19
And first of all, you know, appreciate you having me on, so
00:02:23
I'll hit the first part on kind of my background and how I got
00:02:27
here.
00:02:27
So I've been in the recruiting industry for just about 10 years
00:02:32
And I guess it's kind of a combination of both recruiting
00:02:35
and kind of technology, professional services.
00:02:38
So I've had a couple of different roles, primarily
00:02:42
across leadership, delivery, leadership, which you know we
00:02:45
call delivery, recruiting.
00:02:46
Delivery It's delivery of, you know, obviously, individuals to
00:02:50
the clients And then working with the clients and business
00:02:53
development, even though I hate the term business development,
00:02:56
it's so internally focused, look it's.
00:02:58
We want to help clients out, right, we want, we want to help
00:03:01
clients solve their problems, fill their gaps, those types of
00:03:04
things, right.
00:03:04
That's the way kind of I operate.
00:03:06
Actually, surprisingly enough, prior to getting in recruiting,
00:03:09
i was a high school basketball coach and high school math
00:03:13
teacher for a couple of years.
00:03:14
So just a funny little tidbit there.
00:03:17
But you know, on the side of you know kind of working with
00:03:21
recruiters and maybe we can start out just kind of
00:03:23
addressing the recruiting industry itself, because I do
00:03:26
agree with you, there is a little bit of a stigma and it's
00:03:30
deserved, right.
00:03:31
I think you know there's, there's a lot of recruiters out
00:03:35
there who don't have the candidates best interests at
00:03:39
heart.
00:03:39
They're most concerned about making money And you know, if
00:03:45
they, you know, need to step on a few toes and do a few of those
00:03:51
things along the way, like, unfortunately, they're okay with
00:03:54
doing that.
00:03:54
So that's, that's a stigma and a reputation that you know
00:03:58
myself, i and and and my team you know, battle every single
00:04:02
day.
00:04:03
So I think the most important thing is, you know, i think when
00:04:08
you get on the phone with a recruiter, you can tell in the
00:04:11
first two or three minutes is this person invested and
00:04:14
interested in me or are they just trying to sell a job to me?
00:04:18
Right, and the best recruiters are actually recruiting great
00:04:22
people.
00:04:22
I tell my team their job is to not fill positions.
00:04:25
Their job is to find great people and put those people in
00:04:30
jobs that are great for them.
00:04:31
Right, my, my sales team, my business development team their
00:04:34
job is to fill their positions.
00:04:36
Right.
00:04:36
So we partner together and if our recruiters are doing a
00:04:39
really nice job of finding great people and our salespeople are
00:04:43
doing a really nice job of finding great clients and great
00:04:46
opportunities, then we're going to be ultra successful.
00:04:48
So I totally understand where you're coming from.
00:04:51
It's, it's a, it's something that I think you know is getting
00:04:56
better, you know, than it was, i would say, 10 years ago, but
00:05:00
there still certainly is.
00:05:01
You know some of those individuals out there,
00:05:03
unfortunately.
00:05:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's, you know, and it sucks too right, because
00:05:10
, as as someone that was trying to get into just IT overall,
00:05:15
right right out of college, you know I'm trying to find a job.
00:05:19
I got student loans They're going to kick in soon, you know
00:05:22
and the easiest way for me to do it is through a recruiter, and
00:05:25
I don't know anything about recruiting Like I have no clue.
00:05:30
You know, luckily, or well, i guess, yeah, because my first
00:05:38
interaction with a recruiter was actually pretty negative.
00:05:41
The guy you could tell that he had certain like quotas to make
00:05:49
and he had certain things that he had to meet on his end that
00:05:53
he wasn't telling me that you know like pay, for instance,
00:05:57
right, i requested one you know pay amount and then he submitted
00:06:03
me like way lower or something like that, like it was totally
00:06:06
different.
00:06:06
It came back at a totally different level.
00:06:08
He's like, oh, you got the job, but it's like considerably less
00:06:12
than what you wanted and I felt almost like pressured into
00:06:16
taking it.
00:06:17
You know, like that was the most insane part.
00:06:19
I felt extremely pressured into taking it, like, oh, i just did
00:06:23
all this work for you on the back end, you know like, and I'm
00:06:26
the type of person that's like you know, you do work for me,
00:06:29
i'm going to work for you, right ?
00:06:30
So, like now, i feel, you know, maybe overly invested in this
00:06:35
situation, and it's like man, what do I do here?
00:06:39
Speaker 2: And I'm not surprised to hear that at all, joe,
00:06:41
because I've heard stories like that before.
00:06:44
You know what I always say and the approach I always take is,
00:06:50
as a recruiting agency right, our job is to make sure that we
00:06:56
are finding the best opportunity , like.
00:06:58
I want you, joe, your experience to be that the
00:07:02
recruiter that you're working with should feel like your agent
00:07:05
, just like an athlete or a entertainer or whatever would
00:07:08
have an agent.
00:07:09
Right, i want you to feel like they have your best interests at
00:07:13
heart, because the better you do and the more you advance your
00:07:15
career and the stronger the relationship you're able to
00:07:17
build over time, the better it is for both sides, right.
00:07:21
So I don't ever want anybody to take a job.
00:07:25
That's not a great job for them .
00:07:26
There's just no reason to, especially if you're in security
00:07:29
.
00:07:29
You have the pick of the litter once you're in and established.
00:07:32
If you're good at what you do in security, you're going to
00:07:36
always be able to find a job, always.
00:07:38
That's not changing anytime probably not in our lifetimes,
00:07:41
right?
00:07:41
Yeah, so I think you know.
00:07:44
What I always tell is I want to make sure you have the best and
00:07:49
all information you need and all the unknowns are eliminated
00:07:52
for you to make the best decision for yourself and for
00:07:54
your family.
00:07:55
That is what I truly care about , and whether that means you
00:07:59
take the job that I found you or my recruiting partner found you
00:08:02
or not, it doesn't matter.
00:08:04
I want you to make sure you're in the right position, and my
00:08:07
job is to make sure you have all the information you need to do
00:08:10
so.
00:08:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a I mean , it's a refreshing perspective
00:08:18
that you take.
00:08:19
you know, on the field, to be honest, you know, like,
00:08:24
typically I don't go through recruiters anymore, right, like
00:08:27
companies typically just reach out to me.
00:08:28
Yeah, if I was in the situation you know, and I've told you
00:08:33
this before if I was in the situation where I needed a
00:08:35
recruiter or you know, whatever it might be like I'm going to
00:08:39
you or one other person and or one other person you know and
00:08:44
that's out of that's out of everyone that pings me, it's you
00:08:49
know like, it's like you know you guys are the only two people
00:08:52
that I even refer people to.
00:08:54
you know, because you and this other person, you're just
00:09:03
straight up good people, straight shooters.
00:09:05
you're going to tell me the truth every single time, no
00:09:08
matter what it is good or bad.
00:09:11
you're going to give me guidance.
00:09:12
I mean, i've reached out to you before before.
00:09:14
I like started a job at a company that I didn't get
00:09:17
through you And I was like Hey, do you know anything about this
00:09:19
company?
00:09:20
Do you know anything about this team?
00:09:21
Do you know anything about this hiring manager?
00:09:24
You know, because, from my point of view, you know I want
00:09:28
to make the best decision possible.
00:09:29
I go into, you know, going like working for companies with the
00:09:36
mentality of okay, can I work there for five years?
00:09:39
Do I see myself there in five years?
00:09:41
If not, it's probably not a fit .
00:09:43
You know, like just plain and simple, right, and so I try to
00:09:47
do all the research possible that I can.
00:09:49
Of course, you know, is there is there a certain point in
00:09:55
someone's career that you feel is very valuable to have a
00:09:59
recruiter, or can people use recruiters throughout their
00:10:03
entire career?
00:10:04
Is that valuable?
00:10:05
What's the trade-offs?
00:10:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely So.
00:10:09
I think there's.
00:10:10
I would say there's different phases right Of how you'd want
00:10:14
to interact and how you'd want to work with a recruiter.
00:10:17
It's possible as a college grad or even a master's grad right
00:10:23
to to partner with a recruiter.
00:10:26
The reality is, though, that the majority of organizations do an
00:10:30
okay job at hiring entry-level candidates, and they don't want
00:10:34
to pay agency a fee right in order to find those candidates
00:10:38
right, Because they're basically investing in somebody they know
00:10:41
is wrong, So they're not getting a whole lot of previous
00:10:44
experience.
00:10:45
They're not really necessarily going to get someone, most
00:10:47
likely who's going to hit the ground running.
00:10:49
They're going to have to teach them, invest in them, all those
00:10:51
things.
00:10:51
So they don't want to pay an extra you know percentage on top
00:10:54
of hiring that person right to find them.
00:10:56
So I would say that the majority of the roles that we
00:10:59
see and we get with our organization are kind of, at
00:11:03
that, like three to eight years of experience range.
00:11:07
Right, It's a, it's a range.
00:11:10
Think about this logically right, So you have, say, a
00:11:13
security team, right, And on your security team you're
00:11:15
probably going to have a manager , some sort of leader, right,
00:11:19
You might have like a lead, you know, technical architect or
00:11:21
whatever, but then you need, like the vast majority of that
00:11:24
squad, to be engineers, administrators, the people that
00:11:27
are actually executing on the work.
00:11:29
Right, That's your three to eight year bucket Now it might
00:11:33
be, for some people a little bit less than that, for some people
00:11:35
a little bit more than that, but, like, that is the vast
00:11:38
majority of what a technical team is going to need to be able
00:11:41
to execute.
00:11:42
And then you might have, you know, a junior green person that
00:11:45
you're developing and building it, bringing up, but you don't
00:11:48
want to have four or five people that you have to hand hold
00:11:50
along the way, right?
00:11:51
So that's the population in which organizations really need
00:11:55
And, because it's the most prevalent, it's the toughest to
00:11:57
find right.
00:11:58
So I'd say, right around that range is where you want to try
00:12:02
to lock yourself in and start building a relationship with a
00:12:05
good one, or maybe two recruiters, right?
00:12:07
People that you know.
00:12:08
The first time you chat with them.
00:12:10
They may not have a job, but guess what?
00:12:12
they follow up with you, right?
00:12:13
Because they realize that you're a great candidate and
00:12:15
somebody that they want to build a relationship with.
00:12:17
And they want to try to find something that's right.
00:12:19
For If, the first time you talk to somebody, they ask you one
00:12:23
or two questions about yourself and then try to sell you on a
00:12:26
role that is, you know, not relevant to you, probably not
00:12:29
somebody that's worth, you know, maintaining a relationship with
00:12:31
right, but if you find somebody who's great at what they do,
00:12:35
they're going to provide you access to a lot of opportunities
00:12:39
.
00:12:39
And they're going to also and you, you, you mentioned this
00:12:42
right, you know you call it the backdoor dealings They're going
00:12:45
to be able to get your information directly in front of
00:12:48
hiring Right.
00:12:49
Like that's the value that you get.
00:12:51
You could go apply on LinkedIn and be a part of, you know, the
00:12:55
40, 50, sometimes 100 other applicants, or you could be one
00:12:59
of one or two individuals that that recruiting agency is going
00:13:03
to present to that hiring manager.
00:13:04
So to me, that's a huge value, right.
00:13:06
That can be added.
00:13:08
Once you get past that like eight, nine, ten year range,
00:13:12
especially if you're in leadership, then it starts to
00:13:15
kind of shift a little bit to more of what I would consider to
00:13:18
be executive search, right, and that executive search is going
00:13:22
to be now we're starting to look for, you know, senior directors
00:13:26
, vps, cisos, right, those types of individuals, and that is
00:13:31
much more of a, i would say, a search that organizations are
00:13:36
going to basically operate like that client's HR department.
00:13:42
For that individual search for what might be, you know, one
00:13:46
month to six months right, depending on what it is.
00:13:49
So while it's okay and you could still maintain a
00:13:52
relationship with a recruiter at that point, you're probably
00:13:55
much more likely to have somebody reach out to you who's
00:13:58
working on a specific role at that point, because there's few
00:14:01
and far between jobs and there's not as many you know really
00:14:05
really capable leaders that can fill those positions as there
00:14:09
are kind of across the board.
00:14:09
So hopefully that gives you just a little bit of kind of the
00:14:13
continuum across from where that's at Now.
00:14:15
Does that mean that somebody that's a 20 year vet, that's
00:14:17
still an engineer can't work with a recruiter?
00:14:19
Absolutely not.
00:14:19
Like that's totally fine.
00:14:20
You can certainly continue to partner with a recruiter to
00:14:24
advance your career and find new opportunities.
00:14:25
But I would say kind of that continuum is probably the
00:14:29
standard of what we typically see.
00:14:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense.
00:14:33
You know when, when, when I think of like back backroom
00:14:37
dealings, right, like I remember the credit bureau that I was
00:14:41
working at.
00:14:42
I mean, you were there just as much as me and I was in the
00:14:45
office every day.
00:14:45
You know, you were, you would, i had that.
00:14:49
That was the craziest part.
00:14:51
I was like what?
00:14:53
This guy has a badge, does he work here?
00:14:58
You know it's, it was funny.
00:15:03
but you know, i kind of got to see a lot of that, especially
00:15:07
like with my manager you know that you were working with.
00:15:10
He did a huge amount of that right.
00:15:12
So like he had trusted people and if those trusted people
00:15:17
referred him someone, it was like automatic.
00:15:19
you know, okay, we're going to fast track him, i'm going to
00:15:21
talk to him.
00:15:21
It's going to be a light discussion, you know, just let's
00:15:26
just meet the HR requirements and get him in the door Right.
00:15:28
That was kind of that whole mentality And I've personally
00:15:34
experienced that a couple of times and it's always it's
00:15:35
always very interesting, right, like seeing where people you
00:15:40
know find out who you know and things like that.
00:15:44
You know, i tell people all the time that at least the security
00:15:47
community in Chicago is very tight-knit right.
00:15:48
Like all the CISOs know each other, like every single one of
00:15:51
them know each other.
00:15:52
And so when you're going to get onto an interview with a CISO
00:15:59
typically like the final round of your interviews if you're an
00:16:02
engineer, a more senior engineer like they all talk to each
00:16:04
other And they all bring to each other like, oh, i wonder if I
00:16:09
can offer him more money than you.
00:16:11
You know like they all talk trash to each other.
00:16:14
They all like mess with each other, like, oh, i just took Joe
00:16:17
from you, you know good luck.
00:16:19
Like I felt like my CISO at my last job, i felt like my CISO
00:16:24
knew the day that I had accepted the offer Right.
00:16:28
I felt like he knew that And I didn't tell him it was several
00:16:32
weeks, you know just by how he was treating me.
00:16:34
And then, after I start my currency.
00:16:37
so I was like, oh yeah, i know him very well.
00:16:39
You know I was giving him shit.
00:16:41
when I pulled you I was like, oh my God, you know, like it's
00:16:45
that sort of stuff that goes on, that, from my point of view,
00:16:48
you never really see Right.
00:16:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, and that's that doesn't surprise me
00:16:53
at all, especially in these pockets.
00:16:56
Right Of technology, right, you have security, you have cloud,
00:16:59
you have app dev, you have, you know, product and project
00:17:02
management, a lot of those senior leaders across the board,
00:17:05
especially in a tight net market.
00:17:07
They all know each other.
00:17:08
Now what's going to be interesting to see is over the
00:17:12
span of the next, you know, three to five years, as there's
00:17:16
been an increased appetite for remote workers And, and even at
00:17:21
the executive level, not as much as you know, at the engineering
00:17:25
and kind of individual contributor level, will those,
00:17:31
will those kind of circles like kind of mesh across from
00:17:34
geographical regions, right, like, and and it already does,
00:17:37
you already see it happen across industries, right, so you know,
00:17:40
say, for instance, you know credit bureaus, right, like, not
00:17:44
a lot of them out there.
00:17:44
I'm sure the CISOs from each of those, regardless of where they
00:17:48
are, know of each other or know each other right?
00:17:50
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:17:51
Speaker 2: And same thing in healthcare.
00:17:52
Same thing, right.
00:17:53
So now is you know, the individual markets kind of mesh
00:17:57
across with kind of remote work and be interesting to see kind
00:18:00
of how that dynamic plays out over time.
00:18:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a really good point that you bring
00:18:08
up.
00:18:08
But you know to kind of circle back to recruiters.
00:18:13
You know you mentioned a successful recruiter being
00:18:17
someone that you know they want to get to know you more than
00:18:21
anything else you know, and that that was probably the one thing
00:18:24
that I always appreciated with you.
00:18:26
I felt like I was just talking to someone that you know,
00:18:29
wanting to be friends just straight up, just wanting to get
00:18:31
to know me, right, and it made me more open to you, and the
00:18:35
people that were on your team had that same mentality, they
00:18:38
had that same kind of process as well, and so whenever you guys
00:18:43
would call, i would always pick up the phone like no matter what
00:18:46
I'm doing, you know, even if I'm busy at the time, like I'll
00:18:48
text you and be like Hey, i'm busy, i'll call you in 30
00:18:50
minutes, something like that.
00:18:51
Right, that's the sort of relationship that I always
00:18:57
appreciated more than anything else, because it builds that
00:19:01
trust, it builds that rapport, without you having to be like,
00:19:04
oh, i got this great role, you know, and constantly pitching me
00:19:08
roles.
00:19:09
It's like, man, we're already in security, we're already being
00:19:13
pitched nonstop, right, correct , you don't need to be pitched
00:19:16
even more.
00:19:17
You know like, let's build something.
00:19:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, it goes back to what I said earlier.
00:19:23
right, you can tell very early on if somebody has a genuine
00:19:28
investment and interest in being a value add to you or if
00:19:32
they're trying to make you a value add to them.
00:19:34
Right, it's very easy to tell, right?
00:19:37
So, you know, i've always the teams that I've always worked
00:19:41
with, i've always preached, like look, get to know your people.
00:19:44
Right, resumes, linkedin, all that stuff is out there, you
00:19:48
know.
00:19:48
You know what's not out there, what's most important to Joe in
00:19:52
his next job, what's the thing about his job right now that if
00:19:56
he could change, he would change it right, what would it look
00:19:59
like for him to get into his ideal situation?
00:20:01
right, those are the things that are not on your resume,
00:20:04
they're not on your LinkedIn, but those are the most important
00:20:07
things and the things that matter most to you.
00:20:09
So they need to matter to whoever you're working with as a
00:20:12
recruiting partner, because then, joe, i can call you and I
00:20:16
can say hey, joe, remember, you know, eight months ago or
00:20:19
whatever it was, we were having lunch and you told me, like, man
00:20:21
, i'd really love to find an opportunity where and I remember
00:20:25
you saying this in the past like where I can get into cloud
00:20:28
security engineering, like I really want to get into the
00:20:30
cloud, like it's the future of all technology.
00:20:33
I mean, this is we're talking six, seven years ago now.
00:20:35
Speaker 1: Right, and I remember eventually, right, you found a
00:20:40
role that you know wasn't with me, but you found a role that
00:20:43
got you into that right.
00:20:44
Speaker 2: So if I could come back to you and I could say hey,
00:20:46
joe, look, i have a great opportunity to one of my clients
00:20:48
guess what?
00:20:49
It's a cloud security engineering role.
00:20:50
It's not just a standard run-of-the-mill engineering that
00:20:53
matches the skills that are on your resume.
00:20:55
It actually is something that is taking you where you want to
00:20:59
go, your next step in your career, to advance, right.
00:21:02
So, like, that's the most important thing, If a recruiter
00:21:06
is not asking you, hey, what do you want?
00:21:08
What are you looking for?
00:21:10
You know, yeah, your skills that you have right now are
00:21:13
important, but what's more important is what are your goals
00:21:15
?
00:21:15
Like, where do you want to take your career?
00:21:17
Where do you want to go?
00:21:17
That is where they can provide value to you because they can
00:21:20
scan the market and find the right opportunity for you at the
00:21:24
point in the career your career of where you're at.
00:21:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really good point.
00:21:28
You know you bring up something really interesting and I didn't
00:21:37
think about it.
00:21:38
You know at the time, right where I was in a situation where
00:21:42
I hated working on the technology that I worked on.
00:21:45
Is that the credit bureau?
00:21:47
So you know the technology right.
00:21:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, we won't say it .
00:21:51
Speaker 1: No, i don't want the lawsuit.
00:21:52
But you know, to this day, i avoid places that have that tech
00:21:59
And all I wanted was to get into cloud security at that time
00:22:06
, right, that was my only goal.
00:22:09
But the only thing that I would get calls for was for this tool
00:22:15
because it was in high demand.
00:22:17
Not many people had experience with it.
00:22:19
If you were someone that knew how to log into it, right like
00:22:23
people were giving you a call like, oh, you want to deploy
00:22:26
this thing, it's like dude, that is the last thing that I want
00:22:30
to do.
00:22:31
But you know, i never got that from you, and the people that I
00:22:36
never got that from is the people that I still talk to
00:22:38
today, because it's like you're not hearing me.
00:22:41
I don't want to work with this technology.
00:22:44
I want to go a different direction.
00:22:46
Speaker 2: But, joe, i can get you $5 more an hour, don't you
00:22:49
want to take?
00:22:49
it Like oh it's just, i understand, i feel you.
00:22:55
It's got to be tough.
00:22:57
Speaker 1: I mean, when I started consulting, i mean
00:23:01
people would offer me insane amounts of money like student
00:23:04
loan, paying off money right, to be a consultant for them on
00:23:08
this tool And I, literally I hated the tool so much that I
00:23:14
accepted my student loans over working with that tool.
00:23:18
Okay, like, that is, that's how bad it was.
00:23:22
It's just, it's crazy, you know , like, but to take it back?
00:23:29
right, let's say I do want to jump into cloud security?
00:23:34
right, let's take it back six, seven years ago.
00:23:35
right, i wanted to jump into cloud security.
00:23:37
I didn't have any cloud experience.
00:23:40
Well, this is kind of where the recruiter comes in, at least in
00:23:42
my experience And they're able to fill that gap of you know
00:23:46
what, was it 30, maybe 50% of what you're missing on your
00:23:51
resume.
00:23:51
they can step in and fill it and be like, hey look, he has
00:23:54
deployed these technologies all over the place, he understands
00:23:58
the fundamentals of it.
00:23:59
you know, like you can.
00:24:01
you can talk to hiring managers in ways that you know.
00:24:05
honestly, i can't right, because I'm kind of locked into
00:24:10
the question that they ask And if I start rambling on an
00:24:15
interview, it may get into my head like, oh, i'm talking too
00:24:17
much or I'm talking too little, i'm not going into enough detail
00:24:22
.
00:24:22
things like that.
00:24:22
You kind of fill in that gap, which I've always found to be
00:24:28
really helpful, and whenever I'm looking to kind of make that
00:24:32
change, make that jump in my career, like I need someone to
00:24:34
fill that gap in those backroom dealings right, that's how I
00:24:40
call them.
00:24:40
Yeah, right, yeah.
00:24:44
Speaker 2: And I think for sure and I mentioned this a little
00:24:46
bit earlier one of the major benefits that you should get
00:24:49
from having a recruiting partner is access to these hiring
00:24:51
leaders, right, and that access is in the form of and you're
00:24:55
talking all about it, right If I have a profile like yours,
00:25:00
right, and I'm not just going off a resume, i'm going off the
00:25:03
relationship we've built, i'm going off the conversations that
00:25:06
I've had with your peers or your leaders or whatever about,
00:25:10
hey, this is a really great resource.
00:25:11
Whatever it might be, i can get on the phone, or it used to be
00:25:17
sitting in front of much more than so.
00:25:19
Now it's in this type of capacity, right, virtually than
00:25:22
it was three plus years ago, but I can sit down with that hiring
00:25:26
manager and I can say, hey, look, i know Joe has minimal
00:25:30
experience in X, right, but I promise you, based on what I've
00:25:34
heard from his manager or whatever, he can certainly make
00:25:38
up for it, and he's actually in the process right now of getting
00:25:41
a cert.
00:25:41
He's getting a cloud security certification, right, or
00:25:44
something like that right, i think this individual is worth
00:25:47
the conversation, right, and that's in addition to helping to
00:25:52
set you up for success as you go through that process, right?
00:25:55
What the true value you should get out of me is I can get you
00:25:59
in front of that hiring leader, Whereas otherwise, if you just
00:26:03
sent your resume in, if it's lacking a lot of those things,
00:26:06
you're most likely not gonna get a conversation with that hiring
00:26:09
leader, right?
00:26:10
And then it's on you, right, i can help with the, get you set
00:26:13
there and land the foundation right.
00:26:15
But I know if I could put you, joe, in front of any of the
00:26:18
hiring leaders I work with, i know you're gonna close the deal
00:26:21
, so I'm not worried about that.
00:26:23
But yeah, that is, it's a huge, huge plus.
00:26:26
And organizations once again, i mentioned this at the beginning
00:26:29
when I was talking about entry-level candidates they're
00:26:34
not in the business of paying a premium for individuals that
00:26:37
aren't gonna come in and probably hit the ground running.
00:26:39
But, like I said, if you can share some of the ancillary
00:26:43
things and hey, maybe it doesn't look like he has an extreme
00:26:47
amount of this on his resume, but these are the steps and
00:26:50
things that he's going through.
00:26:51
He's got a home lab, he's got this.
00:26:53
whatever The guy really loves tech and you know he really
00:26:56
wants to get into this, he'll be a great investment for you,
00:26:59
right.
00:26:59
And that's where you can kind of get around some of those, you
00:27:02
know, i guess, gaps in your experience.
00:27:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
00:27:08
You know I always tell people that.
00:27:11
You know my goal when I was trying to get into security
00:27:16
overall right, was make myself as competitive as possible.
00:27:21
You know, check as many of the boxes right off the bat as many
00:27:25
as I can, because I want as few questions about you know, my
00:27:30
skill level, about you know, whatever it might be on a
00:27:34
technical basis, i want as few questions of that as possible
00:27:38
because it should be more of a discussion around.
00:27:41
You know, a personality fit And like for my latest role.
00:27:45
You know it was exactly that right.
00:27:48
Like I had one phone call with the CISO, my current CISO and
00:27:53
he's like oh, okay, we're going to fast track.
00:27:54
You Like there's one more call.
00:27:56
There's typically like five more calls, but there's only one
00:27:59
more.
00:27:59
It's going to be with the architect And I get on the call.
00:28:03
I expect it to be like extremely technical.
00:28:05
You know, because this is an architect, he probably wants to
00:28:07
grill me on some things.
00:28:09
He has like one technical question And I was like what's
00:28:14
the catch?
00:28:15
Because this is really easy.
00:28:18
You know, like this is a really easy question.
00:28:19
Like where are you going with this?
00:28:21
And he goes no, i just want to make sure that you know what
00:28:23
this tech is Like.
00:28:24
Yeah, i know what the tech is Like.
00:28:26
I've deployed it, you know, i've done it, you know before
00:28:28
and everything like that.
00:28:29
Right, it's just, it's about filling as many holes, as many
00:28:36
gaps, as you possibly can, and a recruiter can absolutely do
00:28:38
that.
00:28:39
You know, it's a shame that recruiters get such bad
00:28:45
reputations, you know, and you got to like really put work into
00:28:48
finding quality recruiters like yourself, you know.
00:28:53
Speaker 2: A reputation doesn't come from nowhere, Joe.
00:28:55
There's a reason why there's the reputation, right, and I do
00:28:58
think, like I said, i do think the industry has gotten better
00:29:02
over time.
00:29:03
It's a lot less used car salesman than it was 10 years
00:29:07
ago, but there is.
00:29:10
You know, there's good and bad ones out there, like anything,
00:29:12
right, there's good and bad security engineers out there,
00:29:15
right, you have to put the work in to find really good security
00:29:17
engineers, right?
00:29:18
Just the same way you have to do in the recruiting space.
00:29:20
So, like I said and I mentioned this a little bit earlier but
00:29:24
my advice would be you know, if the recruiter tries to pitch you
00:29:29
a job that is not a fit for you in the first call, then cut
00:29:32
ties right away.
00:29:34
If they tell you that they don't have anything for you and then
00:29:37
at some point they follow up, that's a really good sign, right
00:29:39
?
00:29:39
That's a really good sign, especially if they took time on
00:29:42
the front end to get to know your wants, your needs, what
00:29:45
you're looking for those types of things I think that's the
00:29:48
best rule of thumb is is how much time are they spending
00:29:50
asking about you And not just hey, do you have this skill, do
00:29:53
you have this skill?
00:29:54
But what do you want to do?
00:29:55
Where do you want to go.
00:29:56
What do you want your next job to look like?
00:29:58
That's a really good sign, and probably somebody that you can
00:30:00
spend some time building a long-term relationship with.
00:30:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's actually a couple that you know.
00:30:06
Now that you say it like that, it just comes to mind, right.
00:30:09
There's a couple that I've probably been talking to for
00:30:12
maybe five years, right, and every six months they just reach
00:30:17
out to see how I'm doing And they, you know, it sounds like,
00:30:22
you know, we never, like stopped talking.
00:30:24
You know they're like, they spend, you know, 20 of the 30
00:30:27
minutes catching up, you know, and then, like the last time is
00:30:30
like, hey, like I don't have anything for you right now, but
00:30:34
you know, if something comes up, you know I'll reach out.
00:30:37
And I always appreciate that a whole lot more than people just
00:30:42
straight up reaching out and be like hey, i have this role, you
00:30:45
know.
00:30:45
That doesn't tell me anything about you?
00:30:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know exactly, Yep, not totally.
00:30:51
Speaker 1: So, john, you know, if you had to recommend, you
00:30:56
know, maybe a skill set of field of expertise that people should
00:31:02
go into and try to start to pivot into, maybe either to get
00:31:06
into tech or to have a successful career in tech what
00:31:11
do you think that that would be?
00:31:12
Because you're seeing it from a very different perspective.
00:31:14
Right, these roles open up.
00:31:16
Probably a lot of them are requiring the same sort of skill
00:31:20
sets, same kind of tool experience and whatnot.
00:31:22
What are those things And how can you know my listeners kind
00:31:28
of better prepare themselves for those things?
00:31:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I mean, obviously the big thing that has
00:31:36
been going on for the last few years is anything that's you
00:31:39
know software defined right, anything that is you know
00:31:43
security as a service, those types of things right, anything
00:31:46
that you can automate a lot of those manual tasks.
00:31:48
It's becoming more and more prevalent.
00:31:51
It started, you know, on the infrastructure side.
00:31:55
It's probably started on the software side, then it shifted
00:31:58
over to the infrastructure side and then it's expanded into the
00:32:01
security side.
00:32:02
Another thing that obviously is such a huge piece is anything
00:32:08
tied around kind of data and data security.
00:32:11
I mean, just, you know, open up the Wall Street Journal, you
00:32:15
know, or whatever it is that you read right, there's an article
00:32:18
every single day around.
00:32:19
You know, what is the government doing looking at data
00:32:23
?
00:32:23
Are there going to be increased regulations?
00:32:24
I mean you have a lot.
00:32:26
You know different states that have different standards.
00:32:30
If you can really become strong and somebody that can make sure
00:32:34
an organization's data is protected, you know that is of
00:32:39
utmost importance, and I'm probably not saying anything
00:32:41
that's going to be a shock to anybody, right?
00:32:43
You know the cloud security was the buzz years ago.
00:32:48
Now it's a standard.
00:32:49
I mean every organization is operating the cloud in some
00:32:52
capacity, right?
00:32:53
So I would say you know anything that you can get.
00:32:57
If you can increase your skills from an automation standpoint,
00:33:00
right.
00:33:01
Whether that's you know utilizing something like you
00:33:04
know Python or you know Ansible, more on the infrastructure side
00:33:08
, but it does overlay a little bit Anything from an automation
00:33:11
around security.
00:33:12
Taking away human error, taking away manual tasks, those types
00:33:16
of things.
00:33:16
It's going to make you incredibly marketable to
00:33:20
organizations, right?
00:33:21
Everybody cares so much about automation because it increases
00:33:25
accuracy and it decreases time, right?
00:33:27
So, and then you know just really getting involved in
00:33:32
anything around data security, whether that's data privacy,
00:33:35
data governance.
00:33:35
It's not as much of the technical hands-on engineering
00:33:39
maybe as you can get in, you know threatened vulnerability
00:33:42
management or things like that.
00:33:44
But like even IAM, you know, and those types of things are,
00:33:49
you're never going to be.
00:33:50
Let's, let me just put it this way In the next 15, 20 years
00:33:54
you're going to have absolute demand for your skillset.
00:33:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
00:33:59
You know, it's funny when you bring up like data security.
00:34:04
I have a friend that somehow found his way into IT, right
00:34:10
Like he was, like you know, the smartest person in his school,
00:34:13
whatnot Like one of those really smart, like bioengineering or
00:34:18
chemical engineering degrees, one of those extremely hard
00:34:22
degrees that I didn't even consider in college, You know.
00:34:29
And he, you know, was doing a lot of big data work, right, and
00:34:33
he was working on how to secure you know, petabytes of data
00:34:37
right, and figuring out what the you know what was vulnerable in
00:34:42
the data, what was sensitive, what he should be paying
00:34:44
attention to, how to best secure it so that it could be, you
00:34:47
know, rapidly accessed.
00:34:49
But that wasn't like his you know, main job function.
00:34:52
That was almost like a side project for him at work And
00:34:56
there was no one dedicated to it except for him.
00:34:59
And he asked me he's like, you know, should I get into this
00:35:02
field?
00:35:02
It seems like it might be a little, a little hot, you know,
00:35:07
like all I saw was dollar signs.
00:35:09
Speaker 2: Just a little hot, This guy.
00:35:12
Speaker 1: This guy has no clue.
00:35:13
Like Google will pay you, you know, half a million dollars to
00:35:16
do that.
00:35:17
Like they'll pay you half a million salary with millions in
00:35:21
stock.
00:35:21
Like, just to do that.
00:35:23
Speaker 2: Like yeah, you probably get into this For sure.
00:35:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and it's wild, you know, and some of the
00:35:30
recommendations that I tell people, you know I've said it
00:35:34
before definitely, you know, big data security is one of them.
00:35:38
Another one I would say is even like AI security, you know,
00:35:43
because we're seeing a lot of different like AI's, you know,
00:35:45
pop up right, that seem to be very smart, seem to be able to,
00:35:52
you know, deduct things and reason things and whatnot, and
00:35:57
it's only going to get more.
00:35:59
It's only going to get more intense, right, like there's
00:36:02
only going to be more AI's because we've kind of already
00:36:07
opened like Pandora's box with it, Like we're not putting that
00:36:10
thing away, you know at all, right, yeah.
00:36:13
Speaker 2: And so the interesting thing, though, is
00:36:14
like it's also almost, in some ways it's a brand new field,
00:36:20
right?
00:36:20
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:36:21
Speaker 2: Because it's not clearly defined yet.
00:36:23
What is AI security and what is Intel?
00:36:26
right, there's so many different facets to it.
00:36:30
Right, you talk about, you know , a being right in some ways
00:36:37
that you need to try to control.
00:36:38
Right, but it's got its own mind.
00:36:40
It's got access to things that the human brain can't even, you
00:36:45
know, begin to fathom, right, so so how do you secure something
00:36:49
like that?
00:36:50
right, it's going to be very interesting and obviously
00:36:54
there's been a lot of talk of a lot of the big tech leaders and
00:36:57
stuff about hey, we got to slow down before, you know, we run
00:37:00
into some problems with this, because this could become a
00:37:03
problem and spiral out of control really quickly.
00:37:05
So it's just it's very interesting to think about.
00:37:09
Like, it's something that we're all talking about, but it's not
00:37:13
yet defined what it exactly meets.
00:37:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it'll even be.
00:37:19
it'll get to a point where you see other nation state actors or
00:37:24
other hacking groups that are using AI in ways that you
00:37:29
wouldn't have expected.
00:37:31
Speaker 2: It's scary.
00:37:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, the reason why I say that is because maybe 10
00:37:38
years ago at this point, maybe eight years or 10 years ago at
00:37:40
this point, google had some version of AI running on two
00:37:46
servers and those two servers could only talk to each other.
00:37:49
They weren't able to talk to anything else.
00:37:50
That was literally the only thing.
00:37:53
These two servers figured out at some point in time that the
00:37:58
Google engineers were able to see everything that they were
00:38:01
discussing between each other.
00:38:03
They went and created their own encryption protocol, something
00:38:08
that Google has never seen before.
00:38:09
no one has ever seen before.
00:38:11
They started communicating over that encryption protocol.
00:38:14
Google was like okay, well, we'll break it.
00:38:16
There's no way that they could have created something that we
00:38:19
couldn't break.
00:38:19
They couldn't break it.
00:38:22
Their only solution was to power off the servers and drill
00:38:25
holes into them so that it was unrecoverable.
00:38:27
It's so excitingly terrifying.
00:38:31
Speaker 2: It's so excitingly terrifying to hear that.
00:38:34
Speaker 1: If you want to dive into the military aspect of it.
00:38:38
This is like old, new, new, new , new, new news.
00:38:39
But DARPA years ago they built an AI that had the sole purpose
00:38:46
of attacking other servers.
00:38:48
Before those other AI servers could attack back, they would
00:38:53
have to patch and adjust their own security automatically with
00:38:58
all through AI to prevent that attack from penetrating them.
00:39:03
They learned from the attacks that actually got through and
00:39:07
adjusted and modified things, and they learned a whole lot
00:39:10
about different security techniques just from watching
00:39:13
these two computers go at each other.
00:39:16
It's like AI security to me is something that it's like take
00:39:25
that situation and then build guardrails around it.
00:39:28
Somehow.
00:39:30
You have to have limits within these AIs When it gets very
00:39:33
complex.
00:39:34
When you attach an AI to the internet and it has access to
00:39:38
all of the knowledge on the internet, how quickly is it
00:39:42
going to go through that thing?
00:39:42
and then you want to tell it to not do that.
00:39:45
Speaker 2: It's like how do you put guardrails around something
00:39:47
that doesn't necessarily have a very clearly defined end.
00:39:50
It's going to be a very, very interesting thing to track.
00:39:58
Obviously, i would say over the next five to 10 years, but
00:40:02
we're probably talking the next six to 12 months.
00:40:07
Speaker 1: That's the scary part .
00:40:08
Some people say like 12 months, some say like five years.
00:40:13
You think about it.
00:40:15
Both options are not a lot of time.
00:40:17
It's not a lot.
00:40:19
I think I've talked to one or two people that one on the
00:40:25
podcast and one off the podcast that even understand what
00:40:28
quantum security is.
00:40:31
Speaker 2: I'm not one of them.
00:40:34
Speaker 1: Both times those guys were talking miles above my
00:40:37
head.
00:40:37
I can imagine.
00:40:41
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:40:42
Speaker 1: Absolutely Well, john , i really appreciate you coming
00:40:45
on.
00:40:45
It's always a pleasure talking with you and whatnot.
00:40:48
Why don't you tell my audience where they could find you and
00:40:53
where they could find your company, and maybe just give
00:40:57
them that information so that they can reach out if they want
00:41:00
to?
00:41:00
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure.
00:41:01
The company that I work for is called Birchworks.
00:41:05
We do talent solutions across all different kinds of
00:41:10
recruiting, as well as a lot of market and industry research on
00:41:14
the market in the data and technology space, including
00:41:19
infrastructure security and data like data analytics and data
00:41:24
science.
00:41:25
Please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn.
00:41:29
I would love to have a conversation, even if it's just
00:41:33
something like this job where it's just hey, i want to learn a
00:41:36
little bit more about the industry and how I can utilize
00:41:39
it.
00:41:39
Like I said, and I'll continue to echo this sentiment, my job
00:41:44
is to go out there and help people succeed, help people fill
00:41:49
the gaps that they have.
00:41:49
If that leads to business for me, great.
00:41:53
If not, i feel great about just being able to be a resource for
00:41:57
someone.
00:41:57
Thanks again, joe, for inviting me on.
00:41:59
I had a lot of fun.
00:42:00
It's always great chatting with you and looking forward to
00:42:04
grabbing lunch next time in Chicago.
00:42:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely Looking forward to it.
00:42:08
Thanks everyone.
00:42:09
I hope you enjoyed this episode .
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